Re-building a cutout relay

Featured articles
Post Reply
awander
Senior Member
Posts: 2082
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:03 am
Bikes: '52 FL
'64 FLH
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 511 times

Re-building a cutout relay

#1

Post by awander »

I am going to break this up into disassembly, rebuilding/maintenance, reassembly, and setup/testing.

Part I-Disassembly.

There are 3 soldered connections that will need to be undone before you can take the relay apart-these are:
1) series(heavy) winding to terminal
2) signal light wire to relay base
3) shunt(fine) winding to relay base

I recommend that you obtain a large soldering iron for this use-a large iron, like the one pictured below, will ensure that the iron has enough heat to quickly melt the solder joint; with a smaller iron you will end up heating stuff up for a long time, and getting the parts really hot, just to melt the solder joints. A large iron will allow you to heat the solder joints and the immediate structure around them quickly.
MVC-161S.JPG
MVC-161S.JPG (57.02 KiB) Viewed 4668 times
Heat the solder joint, and use a small screwdriver to pry the associated wire up and out of the pool of solder, thereby freeing it.
#1-Series winding to terminal:
MVC-162S.JPG
MVC-162S.JPG (50.47 KiB) Viewed 4668 times
After freeing the wire, bend it up so it points straight through the hole in the relay base.
#2-Signal light wire to relay base:
MVC-163S.JPG
MVC-163S.JPG (49.47 KiB) Viewed 4668 times
#3-Shunt winding to relay base:
MVC-168S.JPG
MVC-168S.JPG (56.78 KiB) Viewed 4668 times
Once those 3 connections are free, remove the contact point/swinger, as shown below. First, remove the 2 screws through the rear of the contact point/swinger assembly, that secure it to the armature:
MVC-165S.JPG
MVC-165S.JPG (49.35 KiB) Viewed 4668 times
Next, remove the top plate, the contact point/swinger assembly, and the spacer. Note how the angled end on the spacer is used to clear the 4th solder joint, that of the series winding to the armature frame:
MVC-166S.JPG
MVC-166S.JPG (58.71 KiB) Viewed 4668 times
The next step is to use a nutdriver to remove the nut, lockwasher, and flat washer that secure the armature and frame to the relay base:
MVC-167S.JPG
MVC-167S.JPG (47.3 KiB) Viewed 4668 times
At this point, you should be able to free the armature/frame from the relay base. A tap with a small hammer or a screwdriver handle, on the threaded armature stud, may be necessary to free it. If you give it anything other than a light tap, put the nut back on the end of the stud to protect the threads.
MVC-169S.JPG
MVC-169S.JPG (53.87 KiB) Viewed 4668 times
Now for the 4th solder joint-the series(heavy) winding to the armature frame(you can see the joint at the top left of the frame in this photo-there is a groove in the armature frame that the wire rests in before being soldered on:
MVC-170S.JPG
MVC-170S.JPG (46.21 KiB) Viewed 4668 times
Now, we need to free the armature(coils and core) from the armature frame. I would prefer to press it off, but I haven't figured out a way to hold the frame while pressing the core out-so what I do is to hold the armature frame in the jaws of a vise(I tried a smooth-jawed machinist's vise, but it didn't hold, so I used my serrated mechanic's vise as shown in the photo), thread the nut onto the stud, and gently tap with a small hammer-the core/stud will easily move out of teh armature frame(I have done 3 so far, and it comes out pretty easily):
MVC-171S.JPG
MVC-171S.JPG (54.33 KiB) Viewed 4668 times
Next, unwind the series(heavy) winding from the armature(remove any tape that covers it first), by unwinding it clockwise(looking from the top of the winding). Count the turns as you unwind it. The relays I have disassembled use between 36 and 41 turns of enameled 16 Gauge magnet wire. Once the series winding is removed, you will see something similar to this:
MVC-171S.JPG
MVC-171S.JPG (54.33 KiB) Viewed 4668 times
This shows the protective wraps over the shunt(fine) winding, as well as the braided piece of "tinsel" that is used to connect the shunt winding to the relay base. Pull off the vertical piece of tape, and unwind the wrapped tape, until you see the soldered joint between shunt winding and tinsel(continued in next message)
Last edited by awander on Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
awander
Senior Member
Posts: 2082
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:03 am
Bikes: '52 FL
'64 FLH
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 511 times

Re: Re-building a cutout relay

#2

Post by awander »

Here is what you will see after pulling off the vertical protective tape, and starting to unwind the wrapped tape over the shunt winding:
MVC-177S.JPG
MVC-177S.JPG (48.03 KiB) Viewed 4667 times
carefully move the tinsel/winding joint out of the way, and complete the removal of the wrapped tape:
MVC-180S.JPG
MVC-180S.JPG (51.52 KiB) Viewed 4667 times
Next, unwrap the shunt winding, counting the turns as you go. This winding also unwraps CW, looking from the top of the core. I find that a small pill bottle helps here, as I can capture the free end of the winding between bottle and cap, and then wind it up on the bottle as I unwind it from the armature:
MVC-181S.JPG
MVC-181S.JPG (54.04 KiB) Viewed 4667 times
You will come to a point(after about 1200 wraps of 36 Gauge enameled magnet wire) where there is another protective wrap-this appears to be a very this cloth or paper-you may be able to salvage it as I did on this one,(but then I dropped it on the floor and accidentally stepped on it). There will be another complete layer or wrap of fine wire under this protective wrap-for a total of about 1300 turns.
From what I can tell, the "inner" end of the shunt(fine) winding is not soldered on in any way-it is just wrapped around the armature core, and gets it's electrical connection to the core(and thence to the armature frame, and the contact assembly) simply through mechanical means. I suspect, but cannot confirm, that at least part of this final wrap of fine wire was stripped of the enamel coating, in order to make the connection. 2 of the relays I recently disassembled had a steel core, and enough corrosion on the core that the shunt winding did not make electrical contact to the core.
When I go thorough the rebuild instructions(to follow) I will show how to install a small piece of wire to make this connection more electrically sound.

I hope there is at least some interest in this!
Last edited by awander on Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
awander
Senior Member
Posts: 2082
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:03 am
Bikes: '52 FL
'64 FLH
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 511 times

Re: Re-building a cutout relay

#3

Post by awander »

Cleanup:
I recommend NOT disassembling the contact points, terminals, and relay base any further, unless there is an absolute need. These pieces are riveted together, through various insulating spacers, and the potential for damage is too great. Of course, if the insulating spacers are damaged, and allow any of the terminals or contact points to short to the base or to each other, you will need to disassemble further, and replace the insulators, and then re-rivet the assemblies. You may be able to install small machine screws and nuts(with threadlocker) instead of the rivets, to make it a little easier, but rivets will give the most secure assembly.

Clean up any rust or paint that are on the parts, using a small wire wheel, scrapers, etc. There is no need to make the parts look perfect, but you don;t want to leave loose rust or corrosion hanging off the parts. An ultrasonic tank with non-flammable cleaning solution may also work. I have not yet tried it. I'd keep the armature core, with it;s cardboard end plates, out of any liquids.

Keep the wire wheel off of the actual contacts; you can clean these up, if deeply pitted, using a small points file. Take off as little material as possible. final burnishing with a contact burnisher will come after re-assembly.

Inspection:
-Make sure that the cardboard endplates on the armature core are tightly attached. If they are loos, you may be able to glue them in place with some Super Glue. They need to be pretty secure during the winding of the new coils.
-Check to be sure that the brass "spring" on top of the armature core is firmly fixed in place. The core has serrations around the very top of the shaft(under the head) and these should engage the hole in the spring. If loose, you may be able to solder the spring to the core, so that it does not rotate freely.
-check to be sure there is no excess rust or other corrosion on the various parts, which could cause a direct short-circuit, or could come loose and cause problems later.
-make sure the cardboard endplates are as flat as possible. If heavily warped, they may cause a problem during the winding of the coils. If they are badly bent, soaking them in water, straightening them, and then allowing them to dry might work.
steve_wood
Senior Member
Posts: 953
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:32 am
Bikes: 56 FLH, 2007 FLHRCI
Location: Belleville, Ontario, Canada
Has thanked: 49 times
Been thanked: 28 times

Re: Re-building a cutout relay

#4

Post by steve_wood »

Awesome stuff Andy. Great education for all of us!
George Greer
Senior Member
Posts: 1958
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:02 am
Bikes: 1942 WLA Type III
Hybrid WL/KH bobber project.
58 FL
Location: Markt Einersheim, Bayern
Has thanked: 972 times
Been thanked: 259 times
Contact:

Re: Re-building a cutout relay

#5

Post by George Greer »

Amen

George
awander
Senior Member
Posts: 2082
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:03 am
Bikes: '52 FL
'64 FLH
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 511 times

Re: Re-building a cutout relay

#6

Post by awander »

New windings:
I purchased some enameled magnet wire on ebay, in 36 and 16 gauge. It was pretty inexpensive, the 36 Gauge was 1600' for about $12.50, and the 16 Gauge cost about $25 for 128'(both prices include the shipping costs).

There are lots of ways to wind the coils. You can do it by hand, or using a variable-speed drill. I am a half-assed perfectionist, so I chose to do it using my homebrew CNC mill. I wanted to count the turns exactly, and I also wanted to coils to wind as smoothly as possible, so the CNC mill, with a rotary "B" axis, worked well. I have a program to figure out the code for this, if anyone is interested. Here is a picture of my quick-and-dirty setup, ready to start winding the shunt(fine) winding:
MVC-196S.JPG
MVC-196S.JPG (53.41 KiB) Viewed 4616 times
A couple of things to point out:
-the spool of wire is on a shaft, with a spring to provide some friction.
-there is a small v-pulley which moves back and forth to spool the wire evenly across the width of the coil
-the 36 Gauge wire is taped to the inside surface of the "top" cardboard endplate, then looped over to the outside of the endplate, and the excess taped down to avoid any tangles. I used cellophane tape
-Note the cellophane tape over the inside of the "bottom" endplate-I placed 3 strips of cellophane tape, in a triangle, to cover the hole and the slot in the endplate, to avoid having the wire snag on the endplate. I made sure the tape was securely pressed down on the chuck jaws.

The end of the fine winding that is taped in place will be wound directly on the armature core, and will end up being the "end" of this winding that attaches to the swinger/contact assembly. It is not easy to see in the picture, but this winding should be made with the armature core turning CW(as viewed from the top of the core). Here is the first wrap partially done:
MVC-197S.JPG
MVC-197S.JPG (43.06 KiB) Viewed 4616 times
I programmed this to pause after the first warp, so that I could install an insulating layer, as the original coils had. I used friction tape for this purpose, and since my tape was about 5/8" wide, I had to cut the width down to about 0.60" to fit inside the endplates:
MVC-198S.JPG
MVC-198S.JPG (45.65 KiB) Viewed 4616 times
Once the first wrap was completed, I wrapped it with the friction tape-just a little over one wrap in length:
MVC-199S.JPG
MVC-199S.JPG (45.95 KiB) Viewed 4616 times
Next, I restarted the machine, to complete the 1300 total turns of 36 Gauge wire:
MVC-200S.JPG
MVC-200S.JPG (43.76 KiB) Viewed 4616 times
MVC-201S.JPG
MVC-201S.JPG (42.99 KiB) Viewed 4616 times
When it was done, I added another wrap of friction tape, to hold the end of the winding in place:
MVC-202S.JPG
MVC-202S.JPG (39.43 KiB) Viewed 4616 times
Cut the wire from the supply spool, and remove the winding/core from the machine. At this point, it is necessary to add the wires from the ends of the fine wire coil, which will be used to connect it to the other parts of the relay. The original Delco-Remy coils used a tinsel or braided wire. I don't have any of that, so I used a 24 Gauge stranded, insulated wire. First, it is necessary to strip the insulation from the ends of the winding. The easiest way I have found to do this on fine wire, is to lay the wire on a smooth surface, and sand the insulation off using 220-grit or finer sandpaper. I flip the wire over once or twice while doing this. I left about 1/2-3/4"" of insulation where the wires came out of the winding, and stripped about another 1/2" past that:
MVC-203S.JPG
MVC-203S.JPG (46.64 KiB) Viewed 4616 times
Next, strip back about 1/2" or so of the insulation on the wire you will use to extend the coil, and wrap the stripped part of the fine coil wire around it. Solder this using a smaller iron:
MVC-204S.JPG
MVC-204S.JPG (58.61 KiB) Viewed 4616 times
Trim the wire you just soldered, and then press them onto the surface of the friction tape. Note:
-the wire coming from the inside(directly against the core) needs to be connected to the notch in the armature frame, along with the corresponding end of the series(heavy) winding. This wire appears at the top of the photo below. The wire from the outside end will go to the relay frame, diagonally across from the end mentioned above. Make sure to position them so that they are close to their final positions
-make a small loop in the fine wire, before pressing it into the friction tape. Then route the soldered portion vertically, so that the insulation starts at the bottom of the coil.
Finally, put on another wrap of friction tape to hold things in place:
MVC-205S.JPG
MVC-205S.JPG (55.68 KiB) Viewed 4616 times
In the photo above, you can see the small spacer I installed on the stud, to keep the bottom endplate in place, and to allow a larger diameter for chucking up while winding the cores.

Final assembly and testing to follow!
awander
Senior Member
Posts: 2082
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:03 am
Bikes: '52 FL
'64 FLH
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 511 times

Re: Re-building a cutout relay

#7

Post by awander »

Next, wind the series(heavy) winding. It is easiest to start this winding by poking about 2" of the 16 Gauge magnet wire through the hole in the bottom endplate, and then wind on about 40 turns of the heavy wire. This winding is also done by rotating the core CW as viewed from the top. When you are finsihed winding, put a final wrap or 2 of friction tape over the heavy winding to hold it in place:
MVC-206S.JPG
MVC-206S.JPG (59.07 KiB) Viewed 4613 times
Now, we need to press the core back onto the armature frame. I have done this 2 different ways:
-with a small arbor press and a socket that fitted over the stud
-as shown below, using a large acorn nut that fit loosely over the stud, and pressing in a vise:
MVC-207S.JPG
MVC-207S.JPG (46.89 KiB) Viewed 4613 times
Note that any spacer which clears the stud can be used to press the frame back onto the stud.

It is now time to fire up the big soldering iron again. While it is heating, strip the insulation from the 16 Gauge winding, and from the lead wire from the fine winding, at the notch in the armature frame. I have found that the easiest way to strip the 16 Gauge wire is to scrape the insulation off using a scalpel or X-acto knife:
MVC-208S.JPG
MVC-208S.JPG (52.91 KiB) Viewed 4613 times
Then strip back the insulation on the lead wire, place it in the notch, and bend the 16 Gauge wire down over it:
MVC-210S.JPG
MVC-210S.JPG (52.74 KiB) Viewed 4613 times
Finally, solder both wires in place, trimming them on the back side of the frame.

You can now place the armature/frame assembly in place on the relay base, and re-install the flat washer. lock washer. and nut that hold them in place. Note that the remaining 16 Gauge winding end passes through the hole in the relay base. After tightening the nut, bend this winding end down to place it over the terminal, trim to length, strip the end, and solder it on:
MVC-212S.JPG
MVC-212S.JPG (41.98 KiB) Viewed 4613 times
Flip the relay back over, then trim the remaining lead wire from the fine winding to length, strip the end, and solder it to the relay base:
MVC-213S.JPG
MVC-213S.JPG (45.61 KiB) Viewed 4613 times
Re-install the contact/swinger assembly, making sure to install the angled spacer plate, then the contact assembly, followed by the top cover plate, and the 2 machine screws. Pass the wire from the signal light contact down through the hole in the relay base:
MVC-214S.JPG
MVC-214S.JPG (56.11 KiB) Viewed 4613 times
Finally, solder the wire from the signal light contact to the underside of the relay base:
MVC-215S.JPG
MVC-215S.JPG (55.6 KiB) Viewed 4613 times
If the underside of the base flange, where it bears against the engine case, is not clean and shiny, you can touch it up on a wire wheel.

To set up the relay, you will need a 0.020" feeler gauge. Refer to this photo:
MVC-216S.JPG
MVC-216S.JPG (51.52 KiB) Viewed 4613 times
Unfortunately, you can't see the "air gap" in that photo, but the air gap is the distance between the top of the armature core stud, and the metal contact plate above it. With the relay in the "off" position(no power) the air gap should be 0.020". If it is not, bend the upper contact point bracket(the one that lights the signal light) until you get 0.020" air gap.

Once that is done, check the main contact point gap(the gap between the points at the far right in the photo). Bend the Lower (Main) contact point bracket to achieve a 0.020" gap.

Finally, as a check, press the contact plate down, into contact with the armature core, and measure the resulting gap between the upper(Signal Light) contact points. It should be 0.020" as well, though this is not critical.

To adjust the pull-in voltage, I use a large variable DC power supply, capable of several amps of current. I hook it up as follows:
"Minus" to the relay base, "Plus" to the "GEN" terminal. I hook up a DC Voltmeter to these same spots, and slowly increase the DC voltage from the power supply, until the relay closes. Then I look at the meter. The spec calls for these relays is to close between 6.3 and 6.8 Volts. The relay has just closed in the photo below:
MVC-217S.JPG
MVC-217S.JPG (51.32 KiB) Viewed 4613 times
That's it! I have now rebuilt 2 of these relays, and I rode about 60 miles today using one of the rebuilt units. I will want to put a few more miles on her before I say "This Works!", but all indications are positive.

I found a couple of things that I thought were strange, but didn't seem to affect the relay function in the end:
-on 2 relays that I disassembled, the shunt(fine) winding measured around 40 ohms. The wire measured .005" diameter, so it is 36 Gauge. I unwound and counted 1300 turns. Once I put on a new winding of 1300 turns of 36 Gauge magnet wire, the new winding measured about 62 ohms! i am guessing this can only be because of the friction tape that I used for an insulator over the first wrap. The friction tape, being thicker than the original linen or paper insulator, would make the following turns have a slightly larger diameter, and so would use more wire. I was initially afraid that the greater resistance, which means less current in the coil, and therefore less magnetic force developed, might cause a problem, but it seems to work just fine.
-on all 3 relays that I have so far disassembled, the inner end of the shunt(fine) winding had no apparent electrical connection to the armature core/contact plate. In other words, it was not soldered to the core, or to the armature frame, but was just wrapped around the core. The winding I disassembled were in poor shape, though, so this connection may have once existed, and for the relay to function, it needs to be there. It's possible that the original windings had some length that was stripped, and then wound onto the iron core, thereby making the connection. I chose to run a small piece of insulated stranded lead wire and solder it to the end of the winding, and to the armature frame.

Comments and criticisms are welcomed, as well as any questions on things I might have left out. I hope this will help somebody else who has a bad relay to repair it and get it working again.

Let me know if you want me to rebuild one of yours, as well.
john HD
Moderator
Senior Member
Posts: 3711
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 11:38 pm
Bikes: '42 WLA X 2, '55FL, '93 Ultra Classic, '91 Fatboy, '97 883, '03 Rokon Trailbreaker, '83 GPz 750.
Has thanked: 70 times
Been thanked: 128 times

Re: Re-building a cutout relay

#8

Post by john HD »

andy,

very good, i'm impressed! i think you have the skill set to be able to fix 2 unit regulators as well!

do you think the linen tape could possibly be fiberglass? does it burn if you put a match to one of the scraps?

being in the electrical biz i might be able to help you if it is something other than linen...

john
awander
Senior Member
Posts: 2082
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:03 am
Bikes: '52 FL
'64 FLH
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 511 times

Re: Re-building a cutout relay

#9

Post by awander »

Hi John:

Thanks for the kind words. I guess any mechanical regulator would succumb to the same technique, as long as it was built to be "re-buildable" as these old cutouts were.

The trick would be getting enough of them to take apart and figure out how many turns, etc....

I don;t think they had fiberglass back when these cutouts were built.......I will try the match test, and let you know....
George Greer
Senior Member
Posts: 1958
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:02 am
Bikes: 1942 WLA Type III
Hybrid WL/KH bobber project.
58 FL
Location: Markt Einersheim, Bayern
Has thanked: 972 times
Been thanked: 259 times
Contact:

Re: Re-building a cutout relay

#10

Post by George Greer »

Andy,

That is just great, you have taken a lot of time to figure that out.

Sorry to say I was not able to go to the Veterama, and look for more of these for you.... but you can be sure I will keep my eyes open for you.

Great job..

George
awander
Senior Member
Posts: 2082
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:03 am
Bikes: '52 FL
'64 FLH
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 511 times

Re: Re-building a cutout relay

#11

Post by awander »

Thanks, George!

Hey John, all of the various tapes that were used in the relays do burn-some of them seem to be self-extinguishing(they won;t continue to burn unless I keep the match to them.

-There is one that is very thin, almost like the old airmail paper
-another that is thicker and seems to be woven
-another that looks like white adhesive cloth tape(the medical kind)
another that looks like black friction tape
john HD
Moderator
Senior Member
Posts: 3711
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 11:38 pm
Bikes: '42 WLA X 2, '55FL, '93 Ultra Classic, '91 Fatboy, '97 883, '03 Rokon Trailbreaker, '83 GPz 750.
Has thanked: 70 times
Been thanked: 128 times

Re: Re-building a cutout relay

#12

Post by john HD »

andy,

that's interesting. i would guess by the flame test they are all some sort of linen tape.

we have fireproofing tape that is used in manholes to protect high voltage cables from fires or explosions. the binding for the tape is a 3M product that is non flammable and made from fiberglass.

i thought it may have been of some use to help with the difference you saw in resistance. in hindsight, it may be to thick.

obviously, whatever you are doing is working well!

have you considered a visit to a motor rewinding shop to see what they use for insulating armatures?

john
awander
Senior Member
Posts: 2082
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:03 am
Bikes: '52 FL
'64 FLH
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 511 times

Re: Re-building a cutout relay

#13

Post by awander »

I left out how to adjust the closing voltage of the relay. the closing voltage can be adjusted by bending the brass piece, under the spring. Bend it up(toward the spring) to increase the closing voltage, and down to decrease.
58flh
Former member
Senior Member
Posts: 3332
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:54 pm
Bikes: 1958flh 1969sporty,had a knuckle but sold back to original owner
Location: NEW JERSEY
Has thanked: 195 times
Been thanked: 277 times

Re: Re-building a cutout relay

#14

Post by 58flh »

Andy --how are you?----Richie here/ Excellent job my friend! Also I think its better than the originals!--- Like the way you found how they were a rap job on the core from the fine windings. Also the increase in ohms was a huge jump I think, Have you checked or do you know what a new one should be? Not that it makes a difference/ but In my opinion you have most likely increased the performance & lifespan of this very important part we use! Dam fine job buddy! (cheers)-58flh 8) We will meet soon I have your line as promised!
awander
Senior Member
Posts: 2082
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:03 am
Bikes: '52 FL
'64 FLH
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 511 times

Re: Re-building a cutout relay

#15

Post by awander »

Hi Richie:

Road tests are going well! I have about 200 miles on the first rebuilt relay, and it seems to do what it should do-connect the generator when it is putting out a voltage high enough to charge the battery, and disconnect it when it's not.

I swapped out for the second rebuilt one, and will be testing that for a while....
Post Reply

Return to “Articles”