Can't stop primary leak

Transmission, clutch, chains and belts
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mbskeam
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Re: Can't stop primary leak

#16

Post by mbskeam »

hello,
Headhog......
I think that I have to disagree on this one.
as I have been running a belt drive for 4 years with the oil screw shut off. 12,000 miles on belt drive
The first seal that went bad was the oem steel style the second was the colony, but that is because the bott. end filled with gas, and I mean FILLED........
Unknown to me, when I went to start it, gas and oil fly into the open primary . .(it had a chain drive)
after it starts, as I bend over to pick up my helmet I get to see a wall of crap being sprayed every where, whole left side of bike,garage door, car behind me, and all over the drive way.
well it took the seal and turned it inside out it then started to leak.put in new one. and no prob. since
mbskeam

A GAS FILTER GOES WHERE?
57pan
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Re: Can't stop primary leak

#17

Post by 57pan »

hello,
some will say I'm nuts, but here it goes. you can take out the old style metal seal slinger. and put in the colony seal. You can do this with out taking the engine apart. I did it to mine. but it is kinda trickey to get out the ret. ring. the seal then can be removed and the new on put in till it is set to the same depth as the old one.(callipers req.)

mbskeam

were there is a will, there is a way.

This is for Cotten and Billy too.
You guys are talking about the pre-55 case - right? I thought that 55 and later had a seal that is threaded into the case.
I haven't replaced mine yet but plan to this winter - just want to make sure I understand what I'm doing. Not that that has ever hindered me in the past. ;D
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Re: Can't stop primary leak

#18

Post by Jack_Hester »

I thought we were discussing a 49 model engine. I've never attempted to remove this type seal, without tearing the engine down. And then, it was part of the overhaul. Not just to teardown for the seal.

Jack
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Re: Can't stop primary leak

#19

Post by sleeper »

Yes I did it on my 48 Pan Chop.
Long ago. The retaining clip was a fight as was the oil retainer. This style was from 48-54...Not easy..

1955-69 has a sprocket shaft bearing "Nut"
With Left hand thread.
HD tool used is 'Bearing Nut Wrench' Part # 97235-55A
Cotten
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Re: Can't stop primary leak

#20

Post by Cotten »

The post-55 retaining nut has slinger grooves in it as well!
And similarly, there is an aftermarket nut available that is cut for a replaceable seal,.. if a belt is THAT important to you!
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Re: Can't stop primary leak

#21

Post by 57pan »

Thanks Cotten,

I'll admit - changing to a belt primary is something I am considering. I just don't like all the oil spots where ever I park it. If I can shut off the chain oiler and stop the engine sprocket shaft from leaking I think I'll be happy.
Then if I can just figure out how to keep the rear chain from slinging oil all over my wide wihitewalls.
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Re: Can't stop primary leak

#22

Post by Cotten »

How do I type this without offending...?
If an oilspot that was DESIGNED ON PURPOSE into a H-D motorcycle gets you upset,.. then you should have chosen an Indian!!
(Them funny latemodel enclosed aluminum primaries from '65 on up are a direct cop from Indian.)
57pan
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Re: Can't stop primary leak

#23

Post by 57pan »

No offense taken...
But I don't really think that it was the intention of the HD engineers to produce oil spots. ;D It's just that that's what we have to put up with if we want to keep our old bikes completely original. Personally, I guess I'm not in that category. I like the looks of an old bike better than the new ones but if there is some benefit to using some new technology on the old bikes then I'm not agin it.
Anyway putting a belt drive on does not require any modifications that would prevent going back to the chain drive if that's what I want in the future.
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Re: Can't stop primary leak

#24

Post by Cotten »

57Pan!
YES!...yes,...YES!
The oilspot was very much intentional by the Harley engineers!

If you think that ain't hygenic, consider the VL's with a valve to dump the motor contents directly upon the road!
I'm not gonna question your toilet training, but if proper discharge from the primary bothers you, sell your vintage Harley before it causes you undo conniptions. There MUST be a small puddle released from any pre-"65 Pan (assembled as designed with a primary chain) or else it is drastically under-oiled. There is a drain for just this function.
If a belt suits your retentive personality, then I shall defend it to the death. But that ain't the way they were
designed
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Re: Can't stop primary leak

#25

Post by caschnd1 »

Cotten is right. The old tin primary was designed as a "total loss" oil system. Any oil that entered was expected to drip out on the ground or onto the rear chain and was never intended to be reciruclated back into the system.
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Re: Can't stop primary leak

#26

Post by King »

Amen guys, If my Pan would stop dripping I'd be flipping. And it serves a good social function too by providing something for my Dear Wife to bitch about.
But the real deal is it's not a mechanical thing at all, it's the Alpha Bike marking its territory!!

King
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Re: Can't stop primary leak

#27

Post by 57pan »

I really hate to jump back into this fray; I tried to just drop this whole thing and let Cotten have the last word because I have too much respect for his reputation and expertise, and I don't want to appear argumentative. I've got way too much to learn and don't want to get ostracized by the group. But since, after three weeks, someone thought it necessary to resurrect this thread I will just say this and then I will never respond to this thread again:

When I said: "I don't really think that it was the intention of the HD engineers to produce oil spots", I was simply trying to make a distinction between the intent of the designers and and the consequences of their design decision. I agree 100% that it is a total-loss lube system and not meant to be recirculated, and that there has to be a puddle of oil under the bike or else the primary is not being lubed properly. I have no disagreement with anyone who says that the oil spot is necessary. The point I'm trying to make is that it is necessary because it is a consequence of the way it is designed. The oil spot, in and of itself, is not the intent of the designers.

I have been both a machine designer and a product designer and I'm sure that the design process was pretty much the same 50 years ago. When a designer or engineer is given a project it includes a list of objectives that the design must meet and a set of constraints to which the product must conform. The designers/engineers explore different design options. The design process itself is a series of compromises - strength vs. weight, cost vs. quality, time vs. money, etc. The designers/engineers consider the tradeoffs of each of the different design options and the design that meets the objectives and conforms to the constraints with the fewest tradeoffs wins (usually).

In the case of the primary chain lube system, leaving a puddle of oil on the ground under the bike was one of the tradeoffs that they were willing to accept when they decided to use a total-loss system, but the initial design objectives that were given to the designers most certainly did not include the item: "Make oil spots under the bike where ever it is parked." Therefore, it was not the intention of the HD engineers to produce oil spots per se, but the oil spots are a necessary result of their design decision.

OK - I'm done, go ahead and have the last word.
kell
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Re: Can't stop primary leak

#28

Post by kell »

Word, dude.
sleeper
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Re: Can't stop primary leak

#29

Post by sleeper »

Guys, we are way off the tracks here..
Total Loss Systems were used up to 1936 & their function was to gravity feed & or pump oil thru the motor. But NEVER back to the oil tank What wasn't burned off, simply leaked out, & or was dumped all over the ground !!! This wasn't an issue back in the dirt road days.. & This was HD's designed purpose to oil a motor.
Cotten mentioned this about the VL's....Same is true for the early 45's prior to 1936...

From 1936-1964 Big twin & 45 is Dry Sump systems That do feed the oil to the motor the same way, but, Do pump oil Back to the tank, sometimes thru a oil filter. BUT still Recirculated The tiny bit from the
chain/s oilers is "nothing" compared to that of a
Total Loss System... That again by design was HD's way to oil the chains..
I don't think "thought" went into, making oil spots..
Just a design "to Oil the Chains". Plain & Simple...
And these systems both work well still to this day..
As they mark their spot... Rightfully so..
If I am fortunate enough to reach that age, It is likely I may mark my spot as well.. ;D
That's my 2 cents...
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Re: Can't stop primary leak

#30

Post by Cotten »

Face it,... its all about toilet training:
Either you are proud of the mess you make, or you are embarrassed by it.
Oilspots are a natural bodily function for Big Twins through '64 ( and I assume for 45"s through '73 as well.)
Many of us have pets that make much worse messes, in worse places. But we forgive them out of love. Why then should we be so annoyed when our precious machines do what's natural?
It doesn't even smell bad!
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