Fork repair discussion WideGlide

Stiction, other issues

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Excalibur
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Re: Fork repair discussion WideGlide

#16

Post by Excalibur »

Wow, I'm really over the moon with all these great thoughts. A big thanks to those taking the time and effort to post. Much appreciated.

Nifty, like the fork alignment gauge. Been using eyeball for over 40 years but a gauge could be on the cards. These forks need all the help they can get.
I found that after the axle nut is tightened, the lower clamp should be loosened and the fork bounced a few times to center the axle in the clamp, and then tighten it.....
....RooDog...
Yes, they move alright. Just lifting bike on/off sidestand with the axle clamp loose, can give movement that can be seen. I like to compress forks as well to tighten clamp.
Should have added i lowered forks by fitting a spacer under the rebound spring of the require length and if you have preload spacer remove the same amount that u fit under the rebound spring. Also Showa is marked on inside legs unless some one removed cast markings
Nice idea to gain a small drop in front end height. I might end up using this idea plus I'll nibble a bit off tube length.
Raytag wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 6:56 am Jap seals for 10 bucks .
Whoaaa
OEM-Forks can really work :wink:
:lol:
OK, you got me sold. Are these the ones I see on Ebay, Aliexpress and amazon?
sealls.jpg
Quite a few developments today.

Went to my local Harley maverick repair shop and showed Dave a tube. He said it was the early tube, later went to lower bushing. He went on to say don't be surprised if it's a repop front end. He said there might be some tubes in a shipping container but it was locked away in a storage yard and there was no plan to getting to it in the near future.

looked at the Springs also the spare FLH Pan ones. They are closer than I thought, just a few thou difference in OD. A quick test to compare spring weight and the Shovel's are marginally heavier. I straightened the bent one.

Looked at the fender mounting bosses. Effectively there is about 5- 6mm discrepancy compared to fork tubes. Worse though is they're not machined true to fork tubes either. At least one thread could use a helicoil with a few of the first threads eaten out. There's been a lot of heavy handedness on this bike. Had to helicoil another handlebar clamp bolt. They are all helicoiled now, one was done 8mm before I got the bike.

Set front end up how I proposed above. As soon as I tighten the RH axle clamp, stiction gets bad. The clamp half of the fork leg is not nicely machined.
The LH side has been opened out to 3/4" by PO.

Wasn't having much luck getting forks to move nicely so I decided to check the "axle bores" of each fork leg. Yep they aren't true by an means. Right there is a major cause of stiction. Churning options ATM.
hw5.jpg
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Excalibur
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Re: Fork repair discussion WideGlide

#17

Post by Excalibur »

RooDog wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:20 pm Can you tell me more about the Race Tech valves? How does one adjust them once installed as these forks typically destroy the seals when the tubes & sliders are separated?
....RooDog....
As Nifty says, they are accessed from above. Pull the fork spring and valve sits just below it. I use a length of welding wire with a certain hook shape to snag it for removal. Fairly easy. I can get the Panhead apart, adjusted and back together in 1.5hrs. Not as quick as other bikes but they are what they are.
What I really like about these Gold Valves is the ability to adjust high speed compression damping. They have a spring loaded valve which opens when front end hits a hard enough bump. Spring can be adjusted so it opens sooner (or later). Rebound damping is adjusted by oil viscocity alone so this one is set first. After that compression damping is set by valve spring tension.
Tuning suspension so it works well is quite a science and I don't know the half of it really. Race Tech have been at it for some years 40?. I've learnt enough to get the Pan working reasonably nicely. Still learning and looking for the next step. It's not as easy as it looks but a good challenge I was up for.
Hope this helps.
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Re: Fork repair discussion WideGlide

#18

Post by RooDog »

Excalibur wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:47 am
RooDog wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:20 pm Can you tell me more about the Race Tech valves? How does one adjust them once installed as these forks typically destroy the seals when the tubes & sliders are separated?
....RooDog....
As Nifty says, they are accessed from above. Pull the fork spring and valve sits just below it. I use a length of welding wire with a certain hook shape to snag it for removal. Fairly easy. I can get the Panhead apart, adjusted and back together in 1.5hrs. Not as quick as other bikes but they are what they are.
What I really like about these Gold Valves is the ability to adjust high speed compression damping. They have a spring loaded valve which opens when front end hits a hard enough bump. Spring can be adjusted so it opens sooner (or later). Rebound damping is adjusted by oil viscocity alone so this one is set first. After that compression damping is set by valve spring tension.
Tuning suspension so it works well is quite a science and I don't know the half of it really. Race Tech have been at it for some years 40?. I've learnt enough to get the Pan working reasonably nicely. Still learning and looking for the next step. It's not as easy as it looks but a good challenge I was up for.
Hope this helps.
Thanks, Excal,
I have never seen this information presented anywhere, but then, I haven't looked for it, either....
....RooDog....
RooDog
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Re: Fork repair discussion WideGlide

#19

Post by RooDog »

Upon doing a little research I find that Race Tech even makes a kit for our beloved vintage Hydra-Glide forks, and that is just too kool for skool....
....RooDog....

https://racetech.com/page/title/DRod%20 ... FL%20Early

https://racetech.com/page/title/Emulato ... hey%20Work
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Re: Fork repair discussion WideGlide

#20

Post by Hogey »

With the lowering idea i dropped 2" tat was 30 years ago and that bike is still the same no issues
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Re: Fork repair discussion WideGlide

#21

Post by Panacea »

RooDog wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:20 pm I have a nice pair of Pan FLH springs. These appear to be very close in diameter though an inch or so shorter. Any reason not to use assuming spring weight is suitable?

Thanks for any thoughts.
You may use any springs you want as long as they physically fit. Adjust the preload with spaces at the top to suit. This is called tuning.

Can you tell me more about the Race Tech valves? How does one adjust them once installed as these forks typically destroy the seals when the tubes & sliders are separated?
....RooDog....
[/quote]
The Race Tec valves have to be removed for adjustment, the screw that holds the spring tension on a metering disk is adjusted for more or less dampening. I have them on a deuce and a road king, huge improvement in handling. They require modifying the damper tubes for faster oil passage, (drill bigger hole). I advise setting the spring adjustment on the valve a bit less than Race Tec suggests. These bikes usually are not ridden that agressively.
Hogey
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Re: Fork repair discussion WideGlide

#22

Post by Hogey »

The race tech valves also comes with 3 couler springs of different psi rate.
Raytag
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Re: Fork repair discussion WideGlide

#23

Post by Raytag »

Excalibur wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:21 am ....
OK, you got me sold. Are these the ones I see on Ebay, Aliexpress and amazon?
...
Local dirt-bike store
Excalibur
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Re: Fork repair discussion WideGlide

#24

Post by Excalibur »

RooDog wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:08 pm Upon doing a little research I find that Race Tech even makes a kit for our beloved vintage Hydra-Glide forks, and that is just too kool for skool....
....RooDog....

https://racetech.com/page/title/DRod%20 ... FL%20Early

https://racetech.com/page/title/Emulato ... hey%20Work
Everyone please be aware, there is a mistake in RaceTech setup for Early 53 -73 FLH 41.25mm forks. The Panhead damper rod pictured needs an extra set of holes. Without these, the compression dampening valves don't work because they don't receive enough oil flow.
I wrote about my setup on my blog side page, https://harleypanhead.blogspot.com/p/fo ... heels.html Fitting to Hydra-Glide fork forks isn't for the faint hearted but do-able.
Another through-hole here:
dr.jpg
Have advised RaceTech but the mistake remains.
Hogey wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:39 pm With the lowering idea i dropped 2" tat was 30 years ago and that bike is still the same no issues
Great to know 2" can be had without issue... I was worried tubes could bottom out.
Panacea wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:17 pm The Race Tec valves have to be removed for adjustment, the screw that holds the spring tension on a metering disk is adjusted for more or less dampening. I have them on a deuce and a road king, huge improvement in handling. They require modifying the damper tubes for faster oil passage, (drill bigger hole). I advise setting the spring adjustment on the valve a bit less than Race Tec suggests. These bikes usually are not ridden that agressively.
I'll go along with that.

5min video about the Gold valve ...an intro to emulators.
Hogey wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 2:00 am The race tech valves also comes with 3 couler springs of different psi rate.

Pictured upthread..
Raytag wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:41 am Local dirt-bike store
looking into it... thanks.
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RooDog
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Re: Fork repair discussion WideGlide

#25

Post by RooDog »

1) They would have to hire and pay a computer geek to make that correction to their web page.

Also: What's with the time span, 1953-73 on the Hydra-Glide internals?
Don't all fork the fork internals not date back to 1949, or am I missing something there?

....RooDog....
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Re: Fork repair discussion WideGlide

#26

Post by Hogey »

They can not bottom out with my trick. You buy slammer kits. Just a lowering kit. $$$.
Excalibur
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Re: Fork repair discussion WideGlide

#27

Post by Excalibur »

Made a decent improvement to stiction by carefully tickling axle bore holes in fork sliders. As it was, both axle bores were fighting each other making axle banana shape.

Studying existing seals, they dont have any lip springs so I ordered some that have them both sides. I can see why they'd reduce stiction. But lets see, they at least 9 days away.

Question, is there a fork oil that really does reduce friction? Claims and sales pitch are easy to make but what does the brains trust think? Not trying to start an oil war :roll: but I run Motul in the Pan forks.

Oh and by the way, I was out on my '61 Pan today and I'm absolutely loving its' Gold Valve suspension. Makes my earlier struggle all worth while.

The Shovel will be easier to convert to Gold Valve, no machining up parts. There is a question mark about suitable fork spring rate. Website says 1kg/mm. I suppose I could measure up existing ones or simply fit them and see. Worst case scenario, order another pair of springs. For compare the Pan has 0.9kg/mm springs.
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Re: Fork repair discussion WideGlide

#28

Post by nifty »

Exc,

re seals
I had completely forgotten about this crowd
https://leakproofforkseals.com/

In late 70's, or early 80's I installed a few sets when they were specified for retrofit to Meriden Triumph.
I couldn't find any detail of the seals on current website and was a little surprised by their claims for vastly reducing stiction.
The "Leakproof" seals I installed were an unusual design with no metal can, or garter spring, or recognisable "lips". They installed into stock leg recess, which had to be in perfect condition, no gouges, then a precision washer was press-fitted above seal as a retainer. the seal actually floated up & down slightly in recess, came with a warning that if washer pressed in too far they would not work.
Underside of seal hollowed out, but bridged by lots of molded tangental webs. the inner and outer sealing lips (bumps) were very tiny, but several of each. I can attest that, installed as directed, they lived up to their name. At the time I thought empirically that they had more static friction and suspected this would increase when fork diving, appeared to me that dynamic air/oil pressure would expand seal against leg recess and tube.
Funny how memory works, 40 odd years and a few beverages ago, hadn't thought about them since, but in my head can see myself discussing this then new to us technology with fellow workers, installing & testing.

re garter springs on seals
A lack of garter spring does not automatically mean a cheap, or bad seal. Design of the shape and chosen material dictates good, bad, cheap & nasty.
Many of the nastiest seals are made from poorly compounded polyurethane, which comes in fashionable colors, but often disintegrates in service. Conversely, good seals can be made from properly compounded polyurethane and sold by reputable manufacturers.
Garter springs can be tightened by removing from seal, un-twisting the joint, cutting off a few coils, re-do joint & reinstall spring. seldom done these days, but back when I was an apprentice, some alleged tradesmen were in the habit of tightening every spring of every seal they installed.

re oil
For oil to be "low friction", it has to include a bona fide friction modified component.
As hydraulic oil, real oil companies often sell both normal and friction modified, or label it "anti wear" (ISO AW in specs)
MB and ISO AW rated oil, has at least friction modifiers, Shell Rotella T6 oils are low friction, fully synthetic.
These innocent looking spec letters, signify a world of difference.
Real ISO AW hydraulic oil is fairly easily found in 10wt, but hard to find in small bottles.
Whether its slippery enough for your application, remains to be seen.
Or at least use the spec data for comparison to your Motul etc.
Many (snake) oil re-sellers do not include complete specs. As with everything, the devil lives in the details.

Nifty
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Re: Fork repair discussion WideGlide

#29

Post by RooDog »

Does any of this make a difference with a rigid frame?
My biggest problem with a vintage Hydra-Glide fork was topping out. A loud clunk when the fork rapidly extends after a bump....
....RooDog....
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Re: Fork repair discussion WideGlide

#30

Post by nifty »

RooDog wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:28 pm Does any of this make a difference with a rigid frame?
My biggest problem with a vintage Hydra-Glide fork was topping out. A loud clunk when the fork rapidly extends after a bump....
....RooDog....
I will reply in new post
edit go to https://www.hydra-glide.net/phpBB3/view ... 30#p156330
Nifty
Last edited by nifty on Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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