Slipping kicker
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Slipping kicker
Now, here's a brain nugget I'd like some help to get my head around.
Been working on my -52 Project-Pan for some time and finally the day came when it was time to fire her up for the first time. Kicked the way I've been doing before and after perhaps the 10'th kick it just slipped. Result....a badly damage knee bend backwards. Ligament and meniscus went out the window. Physiotherapy and crutches. Took me 4 months to come back before I dared to try again. Nervous as shit...believe it or not same shit happened again after the the 15'th-something kick. Not as bad this time..crutches for 2 weeks but my knee is now crap. So I called my mech-friend and handed the bike over to him in order to take a look at the kick and of course try to fire it up for the first time after restauration.
Long story short...after tuning carb and ignition and all the other shit he managed to fire it up and it now runs great! NOW...the thousand-dollar question.
He has not managed to make the kick slip even once....and he has during the process kicked it at least 2-300 times.
So my conclusion now is that I'm the problem...I'm obviously a lousy ass kicker. But I can't get my head around what I'm doing wrong...it's either that or it's just an unlucky coincidence. Nonetheless...something caused the kick to slip. I need to understand that "something"...
I know one big difference between my kick-style and his...is that I have started my kick at position "10-oclock"...and he starts at around "9-oclock". He is a bit heavier than me so he stand with his left foot on the ground while kickin and I jump a bit, lifting my left fot of the ground.
But from a mechanical point of view....what the h--- actually happened? If I can get my head around some plausible theories, perhaps my self confidence could be restored to some degree.
It's a -52 4-speed tranny fully restored so all inside should be top notch + all new and fresh clutch, hub, fiber/steel plates..
Anyone with some smart theories of what could be the root cause of why the kick slipped when I was kickin' but not even one when my friend kicked?
Been working on my -52 Project-Pan for some time and finally the day came when it was time to fire her up for the first time. Kicked the way I've been doing before and after perhaps the 10'th kick it just slipped. Result....a badly damage knee bend backwards. Ligament and meniscus went out the window. Physiotherapy and crutches. Took me 4 months to come back before I dared to try again. Nervous as shit...believe it or not same shit happened again after the the 15'th-something kick. Not as bad this time..crutches for 2 weeks but my knee is now crap. So I called my mech-friend and handed the bike over to him in order to take a look at the kick and of course try to fire it up for the first time after restauration.
Long story short...after tuning carb and ignition and all the other shit he managed to fire it up and it now runs great! NOW...the thousand-dollar question.
He has not managed to make the kick slip even once....and he has during the process kicked it at least 2-300 times.
So my conclusion now is that I'm the problem...I'm obviously a lousy ass kicker. But I can't get my head around what I'm doing wrong...it's either that or it's just an unlucky coincidence. Nonetheless...something caused the kick to slip. I need to understand that "something"...
I know one big difference between my kick-style and his...is that I have started my kick at position "10-oclock"...and he starts at around "9-oclock". He is a bit heavier than me so he stand with his left foot on the ground while kickin and I jump a bit, lifting my left fot of the ground.
But from a mechanical point of view....what the h--- actually happened? If I can get my head around some plausible theories, perhaps my self confidence could be restored to some degree.
It's a -52 4-speed tranny fully restored so all inside should be top notch + all new and fresh clutch, hub, fiber/steel plates..
Anyone with some smart theories of what could be the root cause of why the kick slipped when I was kickin' but not even one when my friend kicked?
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Re: Slipping kicker
Sorry about the knee, I feel for you....
I would look to the kicker gears, and starter clutch on the right hand end of the transmission. Assuming the main clutch, on the left, is not slipping, in which case I would also slip under way, while riding, and would need to be addressed.
Often aftermarket kick start parts are less than adequate, and need a thorough inspection and correction. OEM parts, though hard to find, and pricey, are the way to go in this case.....
....RooDog....
I would look to the kicker gears, and starter clutch on the right hand end of the transmission. Assuming the main clutch, on the left, is not slipping, in which case I would also slip under way, while riding, and would need to be addressed.
Often aftermarket kick start parts are less than adequate, and need a thorough inspection and correction. OEM parts, though hard to find, and pricey, are the way to go in this case.....
....RooDog....
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Re: Slipping kicker
I noticed something with my project after I put the belt drive on. I was turning it over with my hand at the kicker and felt it give out a few times. I ended up pulling the kicker cover and the gear on the mainshaft had a strange tooth design compared to another that I have. The teeth are tapered and have little gear mesh where as the other has more of a a square profile and more mesh area. Anyway, I changed them out, the square profile is more positive. I can't tell you if either one of these gears is stock.
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Re: Slipping kicker
How worn are your kicker cover bushings? How about the shaft? It will wear oval eventually, as will the bearings. You can check this by trying to wiggle the kicker shaft side to side and then up and down. Aftermarket kicker gears are crappy enough as it is. Add more slop from the kicker shaft and the gears will slip, wear, dent, etc.
The big kicker gear in the cover has a ramp that holds the kicker disengaged in its returned position. This will get chewed up, too, if your gears and shaft aren't healthy.
Finally, the starter gear that slides on the mainshaft must be a loose fit, but not so loose that it can wobble too much. That can allow the teeth to disengage.
I have seen a few different gear profiles, and there are 14 and 16 tooth versions of the starter gear. Both will mesh with the kicker gear in the cover.
The big kicker gear in the cover has a ramp that holds the kicker disengaged in its returned position. This will get chewed up, too, if your gears and shaft aren't healthy.
Finally, the starter gear that slides on the mainshaft must be a loose fit, but not so loose that it can wobble too much. That can allow the teeth to disengage.
I have seen a few different gear profiles, and there are 14 and 16 tooth versions of the starter gear. Both will mesh with the kicker gear in the cover.
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Re: Slipping kicker
you say new clutch hub fiber plates and steel as was taken out or did you do extra plate and 3 finger hub or 5 finger, did you use oem style bearings or long needle fix it kit on hub ? everything has to be checked it could be trying to engage at that point and letting it slip thru just a thought
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Re: Slipping kicker
If I've understood the mechanics correctly there are only 3 places a slip between parts can occur which would cause the Kick to suddenly loose all resistance while kicking
Either between...
1. ...the Kickstarter Gear (on the kickstarter shaft) and the spring loaded Starter Gear (that also operates against the Clutch gear)...or..
2. ...the spring loaded Starter Gear and the Starter Clutch Gear...or..
3. ...the fiber/steel plates in the clutch it self...due to too little pressure on the plates
Correct?
Either between...
1. ...the Kickstarter Gear (on the kickstarter shaft) and the spring loaded Starter Gear (that also operates against the Clutch gear)...or..
2. ...the spring loaded Starter Gear and the Starter Clutch Gear...or..
3. ...the fiber/steel plates in the clutch it self...due to too little pressure on the plates
Correct?
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Re: Slipping kicker
Yes did you reload oem style half plate when replacing also if new hub did you check fiber on it some came to thick when aftermarket is used causing adjustment problems , how was fit when tightened hub sloppy or good fit if sloppy will bind on slop side and pressure clutch to slip
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Re: Slipping kicker
The old clutch setup was unfortunately beyond rescue, so I replaced the whole shebang. New 3 finger hub +long needle bearings, with aluminum pressureplate and 5 fiberplates (Alto Red)+new steel plates. Believe the assembly went well, all things nice and tight. Finetuned the steelplates so that they would move nice over the fingers on the hub.panheadrider1961 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:11 pm Yes did you reload oem style half plate when replacing also if new hub did you check fiber on it some came to thick when aftermarket is used causing adjustment problems , how was fit when tightened hub sloppy or good fit if sloppy will bind on slop side and pressure clutch to slip
Could be that the pressureplate needs tightening...however I didn't notice any clutch-slipping during my test drive.
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Re: Slipping kicker
Take a Sharpie and draw a line on the edge of your pressure plate and continue the line onto the clutch basket. Give the bike a couple or three kicks. If the marks no longer line up your clutch is slipping.
Last edited by Mongrel505558 on Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Slipping kicker
Great tip! Will do. ThanksMongrel505558 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:01 pm Take a Sharpie and make a mark on your pressure plate and basket. Give the bike a couple or three kicks. If the marks no longer line up your clutch is slipping.
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Re: Slipping kicker
All good advice above, as far as the bike side of things.
When you kick the bike, make sure you always keep your knee bent, just a tiny bit, and even if/when it does slip, you won't get hurt.
When you kick the bike, make sure you always keep your knee bent, just a tiny bit, and even if/when it does slip, you won't get hurt.
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Re: Slipping kicker
That's good advice in theory and smart to keep in mind.
I can tell you though (from my Sportster days) that when that kicker totally disengages, all of your good intentions can suddenly collapse into a heap of painful swearing!
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Re: Slipping kicker
Hear, heardroptopford wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:48 pmThat's good advice in theory and smart to keep in mind.
I can tell you though (from my Sportster days) that when that kicker totally disengages, all of your good intentions can suddenly collapse into a heap of painful swearing!
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Re: Slipping kicker
As I was reading this thread, I was also thinking back to my Sportster days. Not only would the kicker slip occasionally resulting in a hyperextended knee, the inside of my knee would catch the corner of the oil bag. Pretty painful for sure. I still have 3 6v kick only bikes but I have to use my left leg because of that damn Sportster.droptopford wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:48 pmThat's good advice in theory and smart to keep in mind.
I can tell you though (from my Sportster days) that when that kicker totally disengages, all of your good intentions can suddenly collapse into a heap of painful swearing!