Is this Engine#/Belly# combination possible?
-
- Member
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:22 pm
- Bikes: Royal Enfield Bullet Classic
1962 FLHF - Location: Frankfurt
- Has thanked: 108 times
- Been thanked: 11 times
Is this Engine#/Belly# combination possible?
Hi guys, this is D from Germany.
I'm just about to buy a 1962 FLH, but before i do so i would like to confirm some number-logic
The numbers of Engine# and Bellynumbers look fine to me. The boss-field has not been tampered with.
Engine Number is 62FLH12xxx and according my information this should be the last FLH-Unit produced in 1962. Is that correct?
Belly-Numbers are matching but are showing 162-59xx. Is that possible?
As far as i understood it, Bellynumbers were stamped after boring the cases incrementing after each unit disregarding which unit was bored. So e.g. a FL-Case could be 162-5200, a FLH-Case thereafter could be 162-5201 and so on. Did i understand that correct?
If i got it right, then how could a FLH12xxx have a Bellynumber in the 59xx-Range? Shouldn't it be something in the 12xxx Range then?
Or am i getting this logic completely wrong?
Thanks for Your help
I'm just about to buy a 1962 FLH, but before i do so i would like to confirm some number-logic
The numbers of Engine# and Bellynumbers look fine to me. The boss-field has not been tampered with.
Engine Number is 62FLH12xxx and according my information this should be the last FLH-Unit produced in 1962. Is that correct?
Belly-Numbers are matching but are showing 162-59xx. Is that possible?
As far as i understood it, Bellynumbers were stamped after boring the cases incrementing after each unit disregarding which unit was bored. So e.g. a FL-Case could be 162-5200, a FLH-Case thereafter could be 162-5201 and so on. Did i understand that correct?
If i got it right, then how could a FLH12xxx have a Bellynumber in the 59xx-Range? Shouldn't it be something in the 12xxx Range then?
Or am i getting this logic completely wrong?
Thanks for Your help
Last edited by DeltaElite on Mon May 22, 2023 9:24 am, edited 3 times in total.
-
- Moderator
- Senior Member
- Posts: 8378
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:09 am
- Bikes: Multiple H-D, Ducati, BMW, Triumph, BSA,...
- Has thanked: 478 times
- Been thanked: 2933 times
Re: Is this Engine#/Belly# combination possible?
Welcome to the forum Darryl. Do us all a favor and yourself and go to the new member section and do an introduction. It will help others to know a little about who they are talking to.
As for the numbers in question keep in mind the odd-even rule used in the early '60s. In even numbered years like '62 the first digit (or the combo of the first two over 10000) will be an even number. So the Vin range began at 2000 and went to 12000+ in only even increments, 2,4,6,8,10,12. However the belly numbers were consecutive so they included odd numbers therefore as the VIN numbers got to the higher ranges they became nearly double belly numbers.
Robbie
As for the numbers in question keep in mind the odd-even rule used in the early '60s. In even numbered years like '62 the first digit (or the combo of the first two over 10000) will be an even number. So the Vin range began at 2000 and went to 12000+ in only even increments, 2,4,6,8,10,12. However the belly numbers were consecutive so they included odd numbers therefore as the VIN numbers got to the higher ranges they became nearly double belly numbers.
Robbie
-
- Member
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:22 pm
- Bikes: Royal Enfield Bullet Classic
1962 FLHF - Location: Frankfurt
- Has thanked: 108 times
- Been thanked: 11 times
Re: Is this Engine#/Belly# combination possible?
Thank You @RUBONE,
that helped me!
i will enter my details as soon as the contract for buying the bike is made , if that's OK for You?
that helped me!
i will enter my details as soon as the contract for buying the bike is made , if that's OK for You?
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1261
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:29 am
- Bikes: H-D
- Location: Western Australia
- Has thanked: 31 times
- Been thanked: 310 times
Re: Is this Engine#/Belly# combination possible?
Welcome to the forum. According to Herb Wagner and Harley model layout sheets the SNs for 62 Pans began at 2001. I agree they went beyond 12000 but I doubt that anyone knows exactly how far. As for 12108, I've seen that estimate in a Connecticut police document which contains errors.DeltaElite wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 10:23 pm Engine Number is 62FLH12108 and according my information this should be the last FLH-Unit produced in 1962. Is that correct?
An alleged motorcycle ID guide from 1986 contained some of the same problems but it differed slightly re the last 62FLH because it said 12105.
The Legend Begins, an official H-D publication, provides combined production numbers for 62 Pans (FLH/FL) but also says its own figures are not to be regarded as totally accurate.
Another source says approximately 12184 (FLH/FL) but then allows for +/- 100 accuracy.
What does the SN look like? In the year portion two types of 6 and 2 were used. If 62FLH12108 is authentic then I’d expect the 6 to be a certain straight-back style and I’d expect the first 2 to be seriffed. I'd also expect the sequence 2 to be seriffed although overall it may be different to the first 2. Etc.
Are Hs on top of the cases near the rear mounting bolts? If the regulator support covers them you could ask the seller.
Is the frame 62? On the frame, lower triple clamp and trans case what letter does the additional original component identifying number begin with? Is the swingarm consistent with 62?
Is any info available from the factory at the moment? Hard to say. Around 2017 the owner of a 70 Shovel rang H-D and was given every date they had for it from motor assembly to bike shipping and to which dealer. In July 2018 the owner of a 66 Shovel was told by H-D that they had no info on the bike because most records prior to 73 were lost but in April 2019 the H-D museum gave him the build date for his 62 Pan. Ring the factory, ring the museum. If no good at either place please call both again later and speak to a different person than before.
Eric
-
- Member
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:22 pm
- Bikes: Royal Enfield Bullet Classic
1962 FLHF - Location: Frankfurt
- Has thanked: 108 times
- Been thanked: 11 times
Re: Is this Engine#/Belly# combination possible?
Great! Thank You Eric.
I'll try to attach some photos of the Engine#.
Looks legit to me.
I'll try to attach some photos of the Engine#.
Looks legit to me.
- Attachments
-
- 20220522_151339.jpg (209.06 KiB) Viewed 1381 times
-
- 20220522_151326.jpg (77.85 KiB) Viewed 1381 times
-
- Member
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:22 pm
- Bikes: Royal Enfield Bullet Classic
1962 FLHF - Location: Frankfurt
- Has thanked: 108 times
- Been thanked: 11 times
Re: Is this Engine#/Belly# combination possible?
There are Hs on the cases (see pic).
I can't tell whether its a 62 Frame or not. Maybe You can? It's hard to identify the number since the Frame was powder-coated.
I can't tell whether its a 62 Frame or not. Maybe You can? It's hard to identify the number since the Frame was powder-coated.
- Attachments
-
- IMG-20220414-WA0012.jpg (195.3 KiB) Viewed 1378 times
-
- IMG-20220417-WA0001.jpg (184.71 KiB) Viewed 1378 times
-
- IMG-20220414-WA0010.jpg (194.04 KiB) Viewed 1378 times
-
- IMG-20220414-WA0011.jpg (220.03 KiB) Viewed 1378 times
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 5327
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:00 pm
- Bikes: 1950 Panhead, Resto-Mod
1968 90", 5 Speed Shovelhead,
1984 Home Built Custom Evo 100" Bagger - Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
- Has thanked: 2801 times
- Been thanked: 2158 times
Re: Is this Engine#/Belly# combination possible?
Well, somebody cobbled the stud/anchor for the steering damper. I'll bet there is something incorrect about the damper's stack....
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1261
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:29 am
- Bikes: H-D
- Location: Western Australia
- Has thanked: 31 times
- Been thanked: 310 times
Re: Is this Engine#/Belly# combination possible?
You’re welcome Darryl. I can’t see anything wrong with the SN. Straight-back 6 is what I’d expect at that stage of numbering.
Both 2s are seriffed as expected and overall they appear to be different types as I explained earlier. Photo below for comparison.
F, L and H are sans serif as usual. Lower horizontal stroke of the F is almost as long as the upper stroke which is normal for 62 and certain other years. (Pans for 48–mid-52 had a shorter lower stroke than that.)
Looks like the H has its cross-bar a bit higher than centre which is normal. (Sometimes the H was stamped upside down.)
Notice both 1s have their top serif at about forty-five degrees and I imagine it’s slightly curved. Fairly wide serif across the base as usual.
Notice the 0 is oblong in shape as opposed to rounded.
The 8 looks okay.
Notice the top edge of the SN boss has a nick in it just above the F and you’ll see the same thing in my picture. It’s common to a lot of Pan cases as are some other markings/flaws.
I can’t see anything wrong with the BNs. Code number 1 looks like it has a forty-five degree top serif but no serif across the base and that is normal. Example below for comparison of some characters.
The 6s and 9s appear the usual style for 62. (Several types of 6/9 were used in BNs over the years.)
I can’t determine the 2 in the left BN but in the R-H BN it looks sans serif and that’s normal.
The 5s look okay.
Notice your sequence 1s not only have a top serif at about forty-five degrees but they also have a serif across the base and that's okay.
Hs on top of the cases look the usual sans serif type.
Another post to follow.
Eric
Both 2s are seriffed as expected and overall they appear to be different types as I explained earlier. Photo below for comparison.
F, L and H are sans serif as usual. Lower horizontal stroke of the F is almost as long as the upper stroke which is normal for 62 and certain other years. (Pans for 48–mid-52 had a shorter lower stroke than that.)
Looks like the H has its cross-bar a bit higher than centre which is normal. (Sometimes the H was stamped upside down.)
Notice both 1s have their top serif at about forty-five degrees and I imagine it’s slightly curved. Fairly wide serif across the base as usual.
Notice the 0 is oblong in shape as opposed to rounded.
The 8 looks okay.
Notice the top edge of the SN boss has a nick in it just above the F and you’ll see the same thing in my picture. It’s common to a lot of Pan cases as are some other markings/flaws.
I can’t see anything wrong with the BNs. Code number 1 looks like it has a forty-five degree top serif but no serif across the base and that is normal. Example below for comparison of some characters.
The 6s and 9s appear the usual style for 62. (Several types of 6/9 were used in BNs over the years.)
I can’t determine the 2 in the left BN but in the R-H BN it looks sans serif and that’s normal.
The 5s look okay.
Notice your sequence 1s not only have a top serif at about forty-five degrees but they also have a serif across the base and that's okay.
Hs on top of the cases look the usual sans serif type.
Another post to follow.
Eric
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1261
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:29 am
- Bikes: H-D
- Location: Western Australia
- Has thanked: 31 times
- Been thanked: 310 times
Re: Is this Engine#/Belly# combination possible?
On your lower frame forging the number should be 47653-58 and it was used for 58 thru about early-70.
The corresponding R-H forging number should be 47651-58 which was used for 58–early-73.
Steering head forging number is probably 47591-35. Other side may have forging hallmark DIF and a forging die number as shown below. For a 62 model frame I’d expect the die number to be about 34 or 35.
On the R-H side of the frame top mount you may find a date code but to see it the R-H tank may need to be removed or at least loosened. Ask the seller if he knows what it is. This one has 2 B and for a Duo-Glide frame it indicates it was made in 1962 in February.
On a Duo-Glide frame both upper rear forgings should have the same number as each other but it was applied in at least three different ways. At first it seems to have been 476 45 58 while later on the spacing changed and a hyphen/dash was added: 47645-58. The changeover appears to have occurred about early-60 (calendar year). Around early-63 the forging number was still 47645-58 but it began to appear upside down.
For swingarm ID here’s a link to a thread started by me but please ask questions if you’re not sure about something.
H-D Big Twin round-tube swingarms 1958–72
The additional original component identifying number on the frame will probably be impossible to see but you may find one on the lower triple clamp and on the front of the trans case. Here’s a link to my thread about the additional ID on all three of those parts.
Eric
H-D additional original component identifying numbers
The corresponding R-H forging number should be 47651-58 which was used for 58–early-73.
Steering head forging number is probably 47591-35. Other side may have forging hallmark DIF and a forging die number as shown below. For a 62 model frame I’d expect the die number to be about 34 or 35.
On the R-H side of the frame top mount you may find a date code but to see it the R-H tank may need to be removed or at least loosened. Ask the seller if he knows what it is. This one has 2 B and for a Duo-Glide frame it indicates it was made in 1962 in February.
On a Duo-Glide frame both upper rear forgings should have the same number as each other but it was applied in at least three different ways. At first it seems to have been 476 45 58 while later on the spacing changed and a hyphen/dash was added: 47645-58. The changeover appears to have occurred about early-60 (calendar year). Around early-63 the forging number was still 47645-58 but it began to appear upside down.
For swingarm ID here’s a link to a thread started by me but please ask questions if you’re not sure about something.
H-D Big Twin round-tube swingarms 1958–72
The additional original component identifying number on the frame will probably be impossible to see but you may find one on the lower triple clamp and on the front of the trans case. Here’s a link to my thread about the additional ID on all three of those parts.
Eric
H-D additional original component identifying numbers
-
- Member
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:22 pm
- Bikes: Royal Enfield Bullet Classic
1962 FLHF - Location: Frankfurt
- Has thanked: 108 times
- Been thanked: 11 times
Re: Is this Engine#/Belly# combination possible?
How could I tell it is?
And if it is, how to solve?
Can you show on the picture what exactly you mean?
-
- Member
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:22 pm
- Bikes: Royal Enfield Bullet Classic
1962 FLHF - Location: Frankfurt
- Has thanked: 108 times
- Been thanked: 11 times
Re: Is this Engine#/Belly# combination possible?
I just want to say: what a great forum with really helpful answers! Thank You all so much for your effort to help a rookie!!!
I'm sure I'll be back here and ask the hell out of You as soon as i have the bike in my hands.
Unfortunately the original US Title was withdrawn by German authorities when it was registered in Germany in the late 80s (that was a normal procedure) . I would have really liked to confirm the Legend of the previous owner. Unfortunately they destroyed everything after 10years when the department fused with another district.
Well, there will be a lot of work to do to bring it to original condition
I'm sure I'll be back here and ask the hell out of You as soon as i have the bike in my hands.
Unfortunately the original US Title was withdrawn by German authorities when it was registered in Germany in the late 80s (that was a normal procedure) . I would have really liked to confirm the Legend of the previous owner. Unfortunately they destroyed everything after 10years when the department fused with another district.
Well, there will be a lot of work to do to bring it to original condition
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 5327
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:00 pm
- Bikes: 1950 Panhead, Resto-Mod
1968 90", 5 Speed Shovelhead,
1984 Home Built Custom Evo 100" Bagger - Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
- Has thanked: 2801 times
- Been thanked: 2158 times
Re: Is this Engine#/Belly# combination possible?
The anchoring stud for the steering damper, recommended only for use with a sidecar, is simply a 5/16 x 3/4", approximately, I don't have one to measure, piece of round bar stock pressed into the boss between the dash mount and the fork bearing cup boss. It was not a threaded and nutted screw stud as you have pictured. Nothing more, nothing less, just a simple piece of steel.....DeltaElite wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 10:37 pmHow could I tell it is?
And if it is, how to solve?
Can you show on the picture what exactly you mean?
-
- Moderator
- Senior Member
- Posts: 8378
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:09 am
- Bikes: Multiple H-D, Ducati, BMW, Triumph, BSA,...
- Has thanked: 478 times
- Been thanked: 2933 times
Re: Is this Engine#/Belly# combination possible?
In '62 the steering damper was an option for use on sidecar equipped bikes. It wasn't on standard solo machines.
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 5327
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:00 pm
- Bikes: 1950 Panhead, Resto-Mod
1968 90", 5 Speed Shovelhead,
1984 Home Built Custom Evo 100" Bagger - Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
- Has thanked: 2801 times
- Been thanked: 2158 times
Re: Is this Engine#/Belly# combination possible?
I like the steering damper only for its looks, and that big five lobed knob fills the void at the top of a pre-1960 Hydra Glide top tree. I installed one on my Panny Project, but I rotated the center, anchoring, disc out of the way so as to not be connected to the stub pin in the frame, rendering it inoperable, but still there for the nose picker, tire kickers to ask "What's that for?".... LOL....
....RooDog....
....RooDog....
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1396
- Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:25 am
- Bikes: 1950 panhead, 1999 FLHTCI, 1987 FLHTC custom
- Location: Daytona Beach
- Has thanked: 438 times
- Been thanked: 648 times
Re: Is this Engine#/Belly# combination possible?
I too like to have odd items of discussion on my pan. A clothes pin is clamped below my risers which elicits questions. I explain the reserve fuel system which can slip down in use, the handy clothes pin keeps it up when needed.RooDog wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 2:43 pm I like the steering damper only for its looks, and that big five lobed knob fills the void at the top of a pre-1960 Hydra Glide top tree. I installed one on my Panny Project, but I rotated the center, anchoring, disc out of the way so as to not be connected to the stub pin in the frame, rendering it inoperable, but still there for the nose picker, tire kickers to ask "What's that for?".... LOL....
....RooDog....
Andygears