meshing of kicker gears

[RUBONE]

There is no reason for the centerlines to match as there is no relationship between the internals of the gearbox and the kicker parts. The centerlines of the kicker gears were determined by the size of gear they wanted to use for the leverage they were after. No relationship to the trans countershaft.

[panheadrider1961]

Following this and still don’t understand what your trying to accomplish the step starter was introduced in the mid 1900,s as simply as a less fatiguing way to start the engine and as simple as exposed gearing on the old Indians so grit and grease and all other debris build up and to many it would still work once it makes its initial start up ,or job completed , those gears and kicker are no more involved in the running of the motorcycle until the next time they are needed to start again so a welled tuned engine need less than 5 minutes of initial gear meshing to start engine and math that for 40 years of labor they have endured if maintained properly those gears do less than any moving part on motorcycle

[nifty]

Raytag asked the question,,,
I had previously found poorly assembled kickers where the KG shaft fouled the end of Countershaft.
So I too was curious.
I came up with a way to determine answer.
I asked here for help, no results, either no-one knew, or no-one said, or apathetic
Providence later allowed me to answer the question.
Now we all know the C/Ls are different and therefore we also know its irrelevant to kicker gear meshing.
I hate guessing, and slavishly believing things without evidence is also not for me.
Nifty

[Raytag]

Nifty,

I completly forgot about it. I`m sorry.
I can confirm what you are saying.
The cs is not in line with the kick starter shaft

Why was it important to me ?
The kicker bushing was sloppy and leaking oil of course.
Time to change the bushings. Easy fix. I figured 3 hours to be sufficient



Pulling out the one piece kick starter out of the cover was troublesome already, couldn`t understand at the time.
After pulling the kicker-bushings I found the bore in the kicker cover tapered, wallowed and not square to the trans housing anymore

Upon examination the shaft turned out not being cylindrical and with different diameters.
Another kick into the gut was to find the outer centre of the one piece kicker heavily malformed presumely by a hammer.

Making new bushings isn`t the problem but once pressing in the bushings they will simply follow the bore and like any other bushing
they will crush a lil and you need to ream them.

Because the hole in the cover wasn`t square to the trans and wallowed both bushings would be way out of line.
Reaming them afterwards with a hand reamer would have produced a hole which isn`t square to the trans cause the reamer will follow the easiest path
Boring both of them at once with a boring-head or machining reamer will produce a square hole in both bushings of course.
But with such an badly shaped hole in the cover ... where`s the centre of the kicker shaft ?
The distance from the kicker gear on the ms and the starter crank gear should be somewhat correct.

That`s why I hoped the cs is maybe in line with the kicker shaft ?
It isn`t.

The way to fix this was the most complicated way I could think of LOL.
It involved many many steps, much more pondering and so I needed some 5 days afterhours and one Saturday.

-Turning down the kicker shaft
-Turning 2 solid bronze pieces
-Taking various meassurements to attain the distance from kicker shaft to the mainshaft considering gear lash
-Pressing in those 2 solid bronze pieces
-Boring them with a boring head, ball honed them.
-Found a rubber o-ring with the right OD to act as a seal.
-Trialfitted the complete assy for hard spots
-checking the teeth on the kicker gear with prussian blue, considering the circumstances I was happy, finally enjoying some glasses of Tyrconnell.

After some 1200mls I`m truelly happy. No hard spot, no leaks.
Nevertheless I took off the cover once to check on the wear of the crank gear and starter gear on the mainshaft and I`m still very pleased

very hard press fit = https://www.wwag.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects ... e=%2147857

I always take notes ... and I searched for them yesterday ... to no avail. Unfortunately I didn`t take many pics
I can give you a detailed run down if you need it via private message because it will bore the hell out of everyone here

Thanks again for your effort !!
Ray

[Andygears]

Congrats, nifty, on a complete rebuild of that cover. Since you determined the precise measurement of the kicker gear/ main shaft centerlines, how about putting it out here in numbers to share? Any other reference dimensions would be helpful, like to bolt holes, or the finger shaft.

Seeing that precise machining, does anyone wonder why their “Made in China” cover doesn’t work well?

I remachined the kick cover on my pan to fix the out-of-square aspect of a cover that had been welded near the filler across the bolt hole surface. By creating a short arbor in the lathe, with a 5/16 tap hole centered, I retained the cover, which had a tight bushing, on that bushing with a bolt & washer, gasket surface out. Then, at a slow RPM, I took small cuts, .005” or less, with a cross slide feed, from the center outward, with an 45 degree radiused tip tool to flatten the surface and fixed the squareness issue and made a nice gasket surface on the cover.

It worked, taking a total of about .020”, and still works well years later, something I was not certain at the time.

Andygears

[nifty]

Um, Andygears
It was Raytag who comprehensively rebuilt that kick cover.
Nifty

[Andygears]

My mistake, thanks Raytag, and any dimensioned sketches would be appreciated.

Andygears

[RooDog]

I suppose I got lucky and got the one kicker cover V-Tedd made that actually fit and worked properly. Other's results may not turn out so well.....
....RooDog....

DSC01896.JPG (120.39 KiB) Viewed 601 times

[Raytag]

Hi,

short answer: I cannot find my notes anymore
The job was done around NewYear

I cannot believe it myselve because I always take notes, I always make sketches of anything.
Just to make it sure that I don`t forget something, is it meassurements, the sequence of machining etc
and everything I write into the same college block
It is full with sketches, notes some of them 3 years old !
Have been looking now, on and off, for more than 1 week to no avail.

I`m sorry fellas

Ray

[47str8leg]

Ever come across those lost notes ?

[RooDog]

Since there is no interfacing between the two, the counter shaft and the kicker center lines, it is of absolutely no significance that the center lines do not meet....
....RooDog....