49 panhead springer?

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Matt58
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49 panhead springer?

#1

Post by Matt58 »

Was there ever a 1949 panhead with a springer factory produced? Thanks Matt

https://www.ebay.com/itm/384428553112?h ... 000%7C2500
49EL1268 springer.jpg
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Re: 49 panhead springer?

#2

Post by RUBONE »

Short answer is yes. On the early order form it was possible to get a 1949 model with a Springer which was recommended on Commercial and Sidecar bikes. By mid season the order forms changed and it was no longer offered. I am not currently able to scan items, but I will photograph the forms and post them.
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Re: 49 panhead springer?

#3

Post by nmaineron »

There is an OP 49 with springer that greets you as you enter the Big Moose Harley in Portland Maine.
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Re: 49 panhead springer?

#4

Post by Speeding Big Twin »

Matt58 wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:26 pm Was there ever a 1949 panhead with a springer factory produced? Thanks Matt

Yes but the exact amount is unknown to me. At least two order blanks for 49 models. This one dated 9148 (September 1, 1948) has a check box to supply spring fork. Also notice it says: ‘May be preferred for ease of handling OHV model when sidecar or package truck is used regularly.’


Image


Springer 49s are sometimes referred to as P models and at least one early H-D model layout sheet included two of them: 49EP and 49FP. But their engines were to be stamped 49E1000 and 49F1000 and up. In other words although the P may have been on the paperwork it was not to be stamped in as part of the engine number.

A second order blank is dated 101548 (October 15, 1948) and has no check box for spring fork but equipment groups for spring fork models are still mentioned.


Image


But although the springer check box was not present there was at least one later model layout sheet mentioning P models: 49EP, 49ELP, 49FP and 49FLP. The later model layout sheet also said the P was to be stamped in the engine number although it was to be placed at the end. For example 49E/EL1000P and 49F/FL1000P and up.

This appears to suggest that only mid-49s and later-49s would have P on the engine and that is consistent with the few photo examples I’ve collected thus far because their engine numbers are all 8+++ or higher. Here’s one at 9+++ and you’ll also notice the P is oversize which was apparently normal procedure.


49 FL 9+++ P.jpg
49 FL 9+++ P.jpg (37.33 KiB) Viewed 695 times


A while ago I heard about a P-stamped engine number at 1+++ but I don’t know if it was authentic and I don’t have a photo. I’ve also heard about engines with P stamped away from the number boss but I don’t have pictures of those either. Anybody have an example?

Why did H-D use the letter P? I don’t know. One possibility I read was that P indicated package truck. But according to the September order blank above the factory recommended a springer not only when a package truck was fitted but also when a sidecar was used so why P for package truck as opposed to S for sidecar? Also anyone could order a springer 49 without a sidecar or package truck so why didn’t they just use S for springer? Maybe to indicate springer they thought about using S but it may have been confusing because S was on paperwork for models with sidecar gearing so they chose the next letter which was P? I’m guessing of course and I don’t know for certain why they used P. Anybody know?

Another post to follow.
Eric
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Re: 49 panhead springer?

#5

Post by Speeding Big Twin »

Were some 49 model Pan frames stamped P to indicate springer? I don’t know. It’s been mentioned several times over the years but the info is contradictory and I am yet to see factory evidence. At least three locations have been put forward as possibilities: the R-H side where the brake pedal bracket attaches; the left side in a corresponding position; and the tab for the left rear footboard stud.

In 2016 a certain 49 was discussed. Engine number was 5+++ and had no P but the frame had P on the R-H side. No photo was posted though and there was no evidence the P indicated springer. Also, on 1946–57 BT frames I have examples of thirteen other characters either there or in a corresponding position on the left side and I think they were done by inspectors. I think it more likely the P on that frame may have just been another inspector marking and was not there to indicate springer.

The only photo I have of P in either of those areas is this one but it is a 1958–64 style frame.
Eric

P on Duo-Glide frame.jpg
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Duo-Glide frame.jpg
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Re: 49 panhead springer?

#6

Post by RUBONE »

A second order blank is dated 101548 (October 15, 1948) and has no check box for spring fork but equipment groups for spring fork models are still mentioned
Keep in mind the accessory groups still applied to 45s which were springer equipped until there end in '52, one reason it still appears on the order forms.
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Re: 49 panhead springer?

#7

Post by panhead »

Discussion in 2010: Another interesting VIN
Matt58
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Re: 49 panhead springer?

#8

Post by Matt58 »

Thanks everyone!
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Re: 49 panhead springer?

#9

Post by Speeding Big Twin »

RUBONE wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:35 am

A second order blank is dated 101548 (October 15, 1948) and has no check box for spring fork but equipment groups for spring fork models are still mentioned
Keep in mind the accessory groups still applied to 45s which were springer equipped until there end in '52, one reason it still appears on the order forms.

I agree. It’s interesting that the early model layout sheet had no provision for P in the engine number but the later layout sheet did. According to Herb Wagner the later sheet was dated December. I know of four P-stamped engines with numbers higher than 11700 so it seems the factory continued to supply springer Pans late into the 49 season.
Eric
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Re: 49 panhead springer?

#10

Post by Speeding Big Twin »

panhead, I remember that thread and I recorded some of it years ago. In that discussion someone said P was on the engine and frame but I saw no evidence re the latter. On one site or another since 2008 I’ve read his comments about the alleged 49 frame P and sometimes he says it is present but that he won’t disclose its location. In 2012 he said ‘rumour’ has it that it is stamped on either the foot brake tab or the kickstand tab but that he himself had not seen it. But in 2017 he said he had seen it a long time ago so I then reminded him of his contradictions. 8)
To this day I am yet to see proof that the factory stamped P on a frame to indicate springer.
Eric
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Re: 49 panhead springer?

#11

Post by SouthBayJay »

Just reading this post now.. I'm a couple months delayed. Thought I'd add a couple tidbits. You can still see original posting and pictures for the ebay 49 that started this thread. One can see that there are 49-(53?) hydraglide style handgrips on the offset-springer handlebars, which I've come to believe/read were a one-year only feature for an actual 49 springer:
ebay1.jpg
ebay1.jpg (209.08 KiB) Viewed 461 times
Whether this lends credibility to "realness" of a supposed 49 springer is up for debate I guess.

Which leads me to my current project. I am building a "49springer" ... mainly because I ~really~ love the look of springers, and I am starting with a 49 engine and frame blank canvas. Engine/frame are OEM, but I have no justification to say it began as a springer, and would never try to pass it off as one.
I was able to obtain over last ~5 years a OEM offset springer fork, and, the one-year only 49-springer handlebars.
So, yes, I'm "faking" my springer, but, its for me, and, again, i would never try to sell it as a factory example. (Although it ~could~ have been? 49F12xxx no P) ) Also, I don't think I can stick to the 49-color palette ... none of them suit my tastes. Hoping to finish by next summer ...
As always, thanks for all the expert info from you all...
p1_b.jpg
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