Enclosed Belt Primary for 68 FLH

Can't stop oil leak after several attempts. Getting frustrated.

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Mongrel505558
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Enclosed Belt Primary for 68 FLH

#1

Post by Mongrel505558 »

When I got my "bike in a box" (multiple boxes) '68 Electra-Glide it came with an aftermarket chrome outer primary with removable derby cover. I want this bike to be as correct as possible so I found an original one-piece outer cover. After bead blasting I got it to have a nice uniform finish - that silver/gray color of raw aluminum you find on these old bikes. Anyway, no matter what I've tried so far I can't get it to seal at all. The mating surfaces of the inner and outer cover are not marred and a straight edge doesn't show any warping. If I could find big enough sheets of sandpaper I'd put one on a big glass plate and give the cover the same treatment I've done to to aftermarket pan covers to get the waviness out, and do the same for the inner case after taking the dowel pin out. I've tried the gaskets with and without the orange printed seal, assembled dry, assembled with Gaskacinch, just recently with Yamabond 4. No love. If the directions say the sealant cures in 24 hours I give it 48. I start with mating surfaces I could eat off of after repeated cleanings with acetone. I haven't tried the chrome cover yet, because I'm not going to be using it anyway (although it might help narrow down where the problem is). So I'm starting to seriously consider a 1-1/2" belt drive.

Problem is with every one that I've seen the belt is way too tight. My pan has a 3-inch open belt and I have it adjusted to about 1/2" to 3/4" slop. Never have any problems. The 1-1/2-inch set ups I've seen make me cringe thinking about what the bearings are going through, and shifting is tougher. Nothing works right when your belt is too tight. I'm looking at an 11 mm BDL kit (47-31SE-4) right now and it has an idler which I assume mounts in place of the chain tensioner shoe. Will it be too tight with the idler and too loose without it? Any recommendations or observations? I plan to keep the electric start so the pulley has to have the ring gear. I don't want to spend a fortune on a new clutch (at least right now). Too many other issues competing for my money, like a top end rebuild (and I'd like to go through the bottom end, too).
Thanks.
Jim
Andygears
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Re: Enclosed Belt Primary for 68 FLH

#2

Post by Andygears »

On getting the cover to seal, have you checked the blind holes in the inner primary? After fifty years of sealer getting pushed into the holes and using screws that probably aren’t original, maybe they bottom before they really tighten. Possibly? I’ve also stacked two primary gaskets to make a seal. And make sure the motor/trans. Are in line and not flexing the inner out of flat when tightened down. And make sure there isn’t pressure being made in the primary, it should operate at a net vacuum when stock.

Andygears
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Re: Enclosed Belt Primary for 68 FLH

#3

Post by RooDog »

Jim...
I had a Karata 8 mm x 38 mm to go in my '68 with stock aluminum primary. It would not even go over the front pulley when fitted over the clutch. The brain at Karata talked to me like I was stooopid, so I hung up on him and sold off that belt kit. BDL told me they have three differing size front pulleys for that app which might help the situation.

A belt needs to be well ventilated, so that is something to think about.

One of the vendors, Rivera I think, said the idler is a bad idea because when parked it cooks the belt in that one contact location, not a good thing.

Yes The Book says the primary should run in a vacuum, but to me that is ridiculous. There are too many places for potential air leaks especially around the starter mechanisms, and all for what? The return oil is sucked from the lowest rearward sump of the case. If anything, I would be sure that case is vented so as to not presurize and force the oil out. I am fixin' to jump into that adventure with my '68 and try a flooded & isolated chain case which will vent through my 5 speed tranny.
Rivera list an 11 mm belt without idler for our apps, but be sure it is for the 1965-69 as the ring gear location is different than on the 1970-84 models.....
....RooDog....
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Mongrel505558
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Re: Enclosed Belt Primary for 68 FLH

#4

Post by Mongrel505558 »

RooDog wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:49 pm Jim...
I had a Karata 8 mm x 38 mm to go in my '68 with stock aluminum primary. It would not even go over the front pulley when fitted over the clutch. The brain at Karata talked to me like I was stooopid, so I hung up on him and sold off that belt kit. BDL told me they have three differing size front pulleys for that app which might help the situation.

A belt needs to be well ventilated, so that is something to think about.

One of the vendors, Rivera I think, said the idler is a bad idea because when parked it cooks the belt in that one contact location, not a good thing.

Yes The Book says the primary should run in a vacuum, but to me that is ridiculous. There are too many places for potential air leaks especially around the starter mechanisms, and all for what? The return oil is sucked from the lowest rearward sump of the case. If anything, I would be sure that case is vented so as to not presurize and force the oil out. I am fixin' to jump into that adventure with my '68 and try a flooded & isolated chain case which will vent through my 5 speed tranny.
Rivera list an 11 mm belt without idler for our apps, but be sure it is for the 1965-69 as the ring gear location is different than on the 1970-84 models.....
....RooDog....
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That's a very good point about the idler cooking the belt. Nice to talk to a manufacturer or vendor that can provide valuable insight.
Mongrel505558
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Re: Enclosed Belt Primary for 68 FLH

#5

Post by Mongrel505558 »

Andygears wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:13 pm On getting the cover to seal, have you checked the blind holes in the inner primary? After fifty years of sealer getting pushed into the holes and using screws that probably aren’t original, maybe they bottom before they really tighten. Possibly? I’ve also stacked two primary gaskets to make a seal. And make sure the motor/trans. Are in line and not flexing the inner out of flat when tightened down. And make sure there isn’t pressure being made in the primary, it should operate at a net vacuum when stock.

Andygears
I cleaned out the threaded holes in the inner primary clear to the bottom with a dental pick. Screws are Colony tapered slotted head. Threads are good. The two gaskets idea is interesting. Did you use sealant? No vacuum in this application. It's sealed. I'm working on using the chain oiler hole for a vent hose to relieve pressure. Not there yet, but I haven't ridden the bike far enough for the primary to get hot. Still getting things dialed in, so I go out for short 1/2 mile test rides. Not registered yet, either, so there's that limitation.
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Re: Enclosed Belt Primary for 68 FLH

#6

Post by RooDog »

Jim....
PM sent....RD....
PS: I have an "Antique" tag on my '68 here in Tennessee, and it is a perminant registration. Also have a wheel chair sticker on it too. There are some bennies to being an old fuck....
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Re: Enclosed Belt Primary for 68 FLH

#7

Post by nifty »

Flooded & isolated primary is a definite improvement, quite apart from near impossibility of achieving vacuum test results for any length of time... A bigger problem is all the shards of steel shed from your starter ring gear & bendix, plus the odd buffer ball from clutch plates... stock, even with magnetic drain plug, all this shrapnel potentially goes back through your motor. Can't happen to isolated primaries.

Sealing oil in aluminum primaries:

If you check the contact faces of both primary covers you will probably find that at the lowest point there is nil to little overlap of case faces, worse if outer has been scraped on road when cornering. Yes you can weld & re-machine, but if you can find a good welder who won't hand you back twisted expensive scrap, and if you have to pay for welding and machining, likely expense will be more than a pair of new primary covers. Or...

After careful prep the poor face overlap areas can be repaired with epoxy. Make a dam mould with a piece of flat ally/steel/plexiglass, drill dam, lightly grease as mould release & attach dam with screws to area of deficient gasket face, trowel in epoxy onto prepped case & up against dam. When set & dam removed you will have a nice wide gasket face. repeat for outer using different screws & nuts. Hold outer against inner with 2 screws loosely in place, eyeball faces for rocking/high spots/low spots. Bad high spots can be filed to improve. If you have a bad low spot (gap when you push covers together) note extent of low spot, remove outer cover, thoroughly prep gasket face of inner. Butter up the epoxy onto low area of prepped gasket face, light smear of grease/mould release on gasket face of outer cover (and adjacent to face), carefully bring cases together, lightly grease threads of screws, very gently tighten screws very light tighten. When epoxy has set remove outer, clean up any oozed epoxy etc, reassemble normally with good quality gasket, add oil & ride. If you do the inner on the bike, use a non-slump epoxy.
The small dowel near starter drive should be functional.

In the good old days re-useable "Lifetime" gaskets were available, I haven't seen them in recent times, nothing to stop you sourcing material and making your own.

Nifty
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Re: Enclosed Belt Primary for 68 FLH

#8

Post by doc9339 »

The 80-82 FXB had an enclosed front belt. I beleive the belt was adjusted by an idler as well. Many auto belt applications out there run a belt inside or outside of a cover and have idlers or rollers that keep tension. And those belts are pretty darn skinny and thin

Idlers are so much easier to adjust belt tension than adjusting the transmission. Sometimes with an idler, if you remove it (a one bolt operation) you can remove the belt off the front pulley, then the clutch basket, a super labor saving deal if needed
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Re: Enclosed Belt Primary for 68 FLH

#9

Post by RooDog »

Just a thought.
Yes automotive timing belts do use idlers but the cams they are driving do not consume 50-100 horsepower, or do they?
Again, just a thought.
One of the belt vendors told me that when parked the idler heat soaks the belt in that one spot where it is making contact. So what? Don't the two pulleys "heat soak" the belt's contact areas when parked also.
I have had problems with fixed size belts and pulleys, perhaps an idler system is in my future.....
....RooDog....
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Re: Enclosed Belt Primary for 68 FLH

#10

Post by doc9339 »

Yeah: I have run an idler on two bikes with open primaries. One was a softail frame, evo BT with an old ratchet top 4 speed tranny. I ran that bike in rain, mud and dirt, and on multiple 10 hr one way runs on the I states, camping sites, etc. I lived on a long dirt road, and so did many of my frinds at the time. It had an idler. What finally did give, after thousands of hot and cold miles, was the front pulley. I was pulling on a exit ramp and suddenly lost power.

I pulled over, shut it off, kicked it again, and the kicker practically just fell over. The front pulley had become so worn with dirt, grime, sand, the miles, the pulley teeth had worn down so far it had gotten to the point where the belt just rode over the pulley with no traction

It was during a work week, called a local indy shop, and no shit, he had a spare old, used engine pulley I could use. Took about 10 min to replace the belt. The idler was the key: With all the adjustment out, once the front pulley nut and belt side shield was removed, you could wiggle the belt and it came right off the front pulely, then I could pull it over the rear pulley. Didnt even have to remove the front pulley. The mech liked the idler idea just because of that and the ease of belt adjustment

And here is the kicker: The old belt was STILL good. It was worn, but nothing I or the mech had never seen before and still ran. The mech and I were dumbfounded. But I did get a spare belt while I was there

Im running another open belt idler on my current ride.
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Re: Enclosed Belt Primary for 68 FLH

#11

Post by RooDog »

Thank You so much for that testimonial....
....RooDog....
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Re: Enclosed Belt Primary for 68 FLH

#12

Post by nifty »

Doc 9339
Fake news alert!!!
FXB did not use a roller primary belt tensioner.
Some had no adjustment and tight primary belts.
Some had inner primary with 4 slotted holes to crankcase, by loosening trans mounts and levering special up-date inner primary case, through MoCo provided special hole, for a maximum of approx 1/8", one could attempt to loosen belt to spec. (still tight primary belts)
They looked sharp, but there were never many FXBs sold and there are now far fewer surviving in original condition, there is a reason...
To borrow Roodog's favourite phrase, another turd from the MoCo!
Nifty
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Re: Enclosed Belt Primary for 68 FLH

#13

Post by RooDog »

Thank You, Nifty, for the insight into the Sturgis primary belt.
The MoCo told Phil Ross
https://www.supermax.net/
that belts wouldn't work, and then went on to produce them anyway. I was not aware of the tension issues with the FXSB. All I knew was that the engine pulley had troublesome rubber dampers (compensators, if you will) they were wear items that needed replacement on occasion. On my '68 I absolutely refuse to make any alterations to my primary cases, so perhaps an idler system will be my salvation...
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Re: Enclosed Belt Primary for 68 FLH

#14

Post by nifty »

Thanks for the link Roodog, had a little smile while reading that.
For many moons I have checked primary chain alignment at top and bottom run of chain.
If you shim motor sprocket until you get the top run spot on, then check bottom and get a variation, you have a twist between engine & trans.
If I know the frame is otherwise straight I carefully grind tops of frame pillars for trans plate, or quick & dirty just shim.
I didn't start doing this for primary belts, I was trying to get decent life out of primary bearing and de-stress inner primary & crankcase.
The twist is the major cause of broken inner primaries and short bearing life, and of course poor shifting.

I suspect most belt rollers start life as universal auto waterpump bearings, these come with bare machinable shafts and are intended for repairing obscure WPs where there is too low demand for replacement pumps. They also get used in sanding/linishing machines as the bearing and shaft inside rubber contact wheels.

I hope Phil Ross uses only the best polyurethane for his pulleys, a lot of PU products crumble to dust after a few years.
Nifty
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Re: Enclosed Belt Primary for 68 FLH

#15

Post by RooDog »

Nifty.....
I turned to Phil's company, Super Max, just shortly after he had died. His brother, I forgot his name, took care of me and supplied a 14mm belt with a urethane pulley and clutch basket. The only alignment issue was solved by rotating the transmission base plate clockwise just a few seconds to get the belt running true. The 14mm pulley tooth counts were 24 & 37, same as I would run with a chain, and the 78 T belt was long enough to place the transmission in the center of its adjustment. Previous attempts with BDL, and a later application from Karata were unacceptably tight. The only problem with any of that primary was due to the 52 long rollers the basket rode on, and they fit too tight to suit me, and caused just enough clutch drag to make finding neutral difficult. All this on a restomodded 1950 Panhead.
My buddies sold a Super Max rear belt pulley upgrade urethane repair to a rider with a fancy billet pulley. Talk about wearing out. Those after market billet wheel pulleys are raw aluminum, with no surface treatment, no hardness. They are doomed for failure.....
But all of this is in vain. Phil Ross passed on to Harley Heaven, and his family failed to keep the business alive, much like what's going on with Sputhe, and I suspect Rivera also. $&$ , too, hasn't been worth a $hit since all the family members are out of that biz too.
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....RooDog....
PS: But the Silent Drive they offered would not fit an enclosed aluminum primary case without alterations to the front attachment to the engine, so that product is also off the table for me.
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