Rebuild engine from boxes

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Excalibur
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#151

Post by Excalibur »

nifty wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:10 pm Exc,
Re “thorough research”, anything less is really only guessing, incomplete, often misleading and will bite you.
Yes, and even when you verify something 3 different ways, it can still turn out to be wrong.
nifty wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:10 pm Re stainless steel:
Stainless doesn’t rust, hardened stainless seems to be the only game in town for sintered pads, as I recall it was you who was earlier musing about using sintered pads.
Been a while since I've run a disc brake but whatever disc material I end up with, sensibly I should use compatible pads. What is good is the opportunity to talk back and forth. Sometimes one comment can make a major difference.
nifty wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:10 pm Re your 2.115” OD for your dust shield:
Fairly darn close, 0.015” bigger OD than genuine 48365-48A lower shield, details of which I posted some pages back. Provided your slightly oversize lower shield is round and burr free it should still fit within the approx 2.130” ID counterbore above cup in genuine 60 up frame cup. Rolled edge of lower shield is supposed to form a labyrinth type device in lower frame cup. Mock up lower shield, bearing cone & frame cup with bearing cup installed, ensure sharp edge of shield doesn’t scrape against frame cup. And put you glasses on when you do it.
The lower cup doesn't have any counterbore to fit dust shield.
Made a replacement for top dust shield.
Re glasses. I use #1.5 for everything except for close-up inspection where I need #3. Pity I can't use 3's for everything but then things more than 2ft away are a blur. Bifocals could solve it I guess...
nifty wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:10 pm Re Your Timken Cone L44643:
My research shows that L44643 cone is correct for 60 up frame cup, which you don’t appear to have.
Probably repop along with the front end.
nifty wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:10 pm Re 44210-79 is superseded by 44210-92
Well Sherlock, you might be right, go ahead and buy three OE discs for around $175.99 USD each, plus freight and taxes, and hope when you get them, they fit your custom application.
Wasn't thinking of it specifically, but merely widening the net of prospective candidate rotors and adding to the knowledge of what works and what don't. This could be handy if the upcoming swapmeet goes ahead in which case I'd have my list of part numbers, a micrometer, a straight edge and a vernier/ruler. Caveat Emptor as much of the stuff that makes it to a swap really needs to find a scrap bin.

Thanks!
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#152

Post by RooDog »

Just a thought:
Brake pads are cheaper and easier to replace than rotors, so my thoughts are to run stainless rotors, as they maintain good looks, and use softer pads, replaced as often as necessary. Your not building a road racing machine, so over the top sintered, or carbon, pads are an unnecessary expense....
....RooDog....
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#153

Post by 59Panman »

Forgot! you are not in US!

For brake pads/shoes, contact Vintage Brake.

VINTAGE BRAKE
Michael "Mercury" Morse
15069 Lupine Lane
Sonora, CA   95370
209-533-4346
Fax: (209) 533-4346

http://www.vintagebrake.com/drum.htm
RooDog
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#154

Post by RooDog »

May I have your postal code? I might be able to help....
....RooDog....
Excalibur
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#155

Post by Excalibur »

Thanks for the thoughts.

RooDog: my postcodes
Residence: Hamilton 3287 NZ
Work: Hamilton 3204 NZ
Try these both because my rural residence sometimes attracts a surcharge. Thanks!

Rambo, my local brake relining guy has done both my Pan front & rear brake shoes with good results. It has a very mild speckling of metal particles but it's not tearing the drums up. He could possibly sort out brake pad material if I found myself in a position of mismatched rotor/pad material.
Actually there's a fair bit to know about sintering and technology is evolving. Interesting read here: Sintered vs Organic

Sun's out. Getting the Pan out shortly...
Excalibur
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#156

Post by Excalibur »

Dismantled and cleaned the wheel bearings. One bearing has got water damage. Of note is the rear bearing spacer tube. It's been turned up and has a +.040" fit to the shaft. That's twice the clearance fit compared to the front wheel spacer which appears original. Am I being too fussy remaking that spacer, simply so the fit-to-shaft is more like the front? Also it's missing the centralizing rings for easy axle insertion.
spp.jpg
Getting set to hit Harley Dave up for pinion shaft rollers. My existing ones measure just over 1/4" so it bodes well to getting some sort of slightly bigger oversize rollers. I note ('78 - '84) book value for running clearance is .0008"
I haven't got a new 11007 pinion retainer/snap ring. Should I insist on getting one?

My recent parts order is held up waiting for stock, going into 6th week. It is what it is. My thought of getting bike fired by Christmas is slipping away.
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#157

Post by nifty »

Exc,
Re wheel spacer
Bit loose, but It will will probably live ok with .040" axle clearance (no chance of axle jamming :lol: )
I hate wheel spacers that drop down and force you to dick around to get axle in.
In an earlier post you gave the impression that you had previous experience with making your own hub bearing spacers, how did you do them?

When I make wheel spacers I tack weld appropriate flat washers on and then face ends to length
If you weld on a finished length spacer you run the risk of slight distortion and faces no longer true, which tries to cock the bearing.
But if you only have a small lathe chuck, it might not be possible to swallow spacer with washers attached.
Must pass through timken outer cups, must have running clearance to ID of hub, don't think the flats are necessary.
Lightly grease inside axle spacer and axle
Use good seals, properly pack quality grease into bearing cones, not just daubed on outside of rollers.
Bearing cone are same as front outer on 40's Ford V8 and some TE20 Ferguson tractors, must be a few of them in NZ

Re pinion rollers,
In use, the rollers wear and lose diameter, the rollers wear faster than shafts & races, measure shaft and race or you're just dicking around wasting time and likely to waste money on wrong size rollers
BTW in recent times I've bought advertised as "standard" rollers that were undersize when I shipped them half way around the world and measured them.
I hope you are not trying to set up your bottom end with a vernier caliper? even a quality digital one is not suitable.

I've never seen a tenths micrometer or dial comparator that measured in "a bit over", old time wood workers once used measuring sticks and dimensions along the lines of "stick plus 1/2 inch".

Re snap ring
"should I buy a new one?"
Depends on who took it off and how lucky you feel.
If there isn't a new pan or shovel or early Evo snapring in NZ, get a late Evo snapring, same thickness for groove, but deeper section for the different cage of INA pinion brg, according to S&S they now use the later clip in everything. I've got the number somewhere but not at my fingertips.
Whatever you use it should be confirmed tight in bottom of groove before you move on.

Nifty
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#158

Post by nifty »

Exc,
11177A RETAINING RING, right bearing 94up, (Pinion shaft snap ring, larger OD than earlier 11007), S&S PN 31-4021 , Eastern Motorcycle Parts A-11177, DS188039, Dennis Kirk 1401096; V-Twin Manuf 12-0967, J&P Part #: 433-346.
This larger OD snap ring must be used with late INA caged style 1994 and later single roller pinion bearings.
Earlier style smaller diameter retaining clip may not sufficiently contact late style bearing cage to safely hold bearing cage in place. Refer to Harley-Davidson® Service Bulletin M-1042, 4-19-94. S&S recommends that late style retaining clip be used with all types of pinion bearings.
I didn't record where I found the S&S reference, Mr Google will probably tell you.
Nifty
Excalibur
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#159

Post by Excalibur »

Nifty, thanks for the pointers. Awesome.

Great info.. I can get the 11177A, sitting on the shelf nearby.

Axle spacer. I made the washers as pictured. They were press-formed with a rolled edge, then sweated with solder.
sp1.jpg
It fits my lathe chuck, so I can nibble a smidgeon off if I need to.

Recalled various spacers I made over the years but most memorable are for my competition bikes where the stock one was replaced with 7075 T6 aluminum. Principally for weight saving they were machined from solid round bar. Nearly 20 years ago I bought a lathe for the shed workshop. I made sure I got one with 1.5" 38mm spindle bore...
lth.JPG
The bearings, LM11949 are amongst other things, very common for trailers (outer bearing). My plan is to get a Timken and avoiding the cheap trailer kits.

Went to see if Harley Dave had any rollers. Unfortunately he couldn't lay his hands on the tray with all the crank assembly bits. He thinks it's hiding somewhere in the Engine Room. Will call in again this week and chase it along.
My rollers cage, etc..
ro.jpg
Is there a best practice for valve guide installation as far as temperature to heat to goes? Recalling my valve guide installing on the Pans' STD heads, there was a caution not to exceed a certain temperature. Factory manual doesn't specify.

Nifty, a while back you mentioned calipers, might have been motocross? Is this the type of thing here??
cal.jpg
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#160

Post by George Greer »

Nice engine collection ya got there,

Any more photos?

George
Excalibur
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#161

Post by Excalibur »

ev.jpg
55.jpg
More on my Motorcycle Engine Blog
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#162

Post by Mongrel505558 »

Excalibur wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:31 am ev.jpg

55.jpg

More on my Motorcycle Engine Blog
The Commando engine brings back fond memories. Great bikes.
Excalibur
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#163

Post by Excalibur »

I was notified my parts were marked as shipped so I got out in the shed fueled with a bit of excitement. My shipment went UPS via Honolulu then Botany, AU. Now marked departed so I expect it will be landed in Auckland now. Fastest ever shipping.

I cleaned up the front calipers in readiness for the seal kits. They have survived reasonably well. A PO had used thin stainless half inch washers on the 7/16" bolts. They were buckled and bowed out of shape. Studying part number 44165-77 on Ebay, looks like an extra heavy washer will do. Nothing special.
whs.jpg
Finished sorting out the SU carb. I fitted the right needle, spring and checked main jet and float level. Some months ago I made a new needle valve using a Harley CV needle and custom made a brass seat. Will be exciting to see if it works as expected.
I was surprised to find the upswept manifold wasn't the correct size fit at the spigots. It measures 1.89" whereas the straight manifold below is the correct 2" spigot type or at least as I remember it. What is my upswept manifold off? The angle looks correct but I expect it's too wide to fit between heads. I'd like to use an upsweep manifold because of the extra leg room comfort it provides.
su.jpg
The SU air filter foam element was rotten. Am setting up with oiled copper mesh.
af.jpg
The replacement pinion shaft measured slightly bigger than the old one so I trial fitted it with existing rollers in the outer race. It was a plug fit with no shake, so I need only (Sunnen) hone a light lick out of the outer race to achieve .0008" clearance. New rollers of course (which measure STD). The thought is this will clean up the outer race peppered marks. Visually these marks can be seen but can't be felt by touch.
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Excalibur
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#164

Post by Excalibur »

Looks like I solved the intake manifold mystery. It's Evo or at least according to a pic of one for sale online.
Therefore I have 3 options.
1/. Use the other straight manifold. This might dictate which tank pair I use. Seem to recall 5gal tanks require an upswept intake.
2/. Source a Shovel upswept intake.
3/. Cut and press on a thin sleeve to the Evo intake. Angle is 60° so looks like it should work. It's another job I don't need though. There again, there's plenty of jobs I didn't need on this bike.

Parts were delivered this afternoon at my work. That's less than 4 days elapsed time. Never had anything come that quick. Thankyou UPS.

Found some DOT5 brake fluid. Ok, they had to order it in but at least it was listed. Penrite
Excalibur
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#165

Post by Excalibur »

Uncovered another horrible thing...

I was about to put the order in for the valve bits and I decided to recheck everything and just as well I did. I was going to get a set of 'large stem' valves plus one guide. I was checking the rear exhaust guide when I noticed the top of the guide was "movable" ever so slightly. As I pushed and prodded, it broke away!!... It was holding on by the tiniest bit. See pic of the matching fresh break, light grey spot.
gi.jpg
Is this a common occurrence? Known issue? Bad batch of guides??
Valve guide marking: AV & V *5400C. There is an o-ring under guide flange.
Currently I have both exhaust guides removed. Pondering about the intakes. They look nice enough and are a satisfactory fit to the valve.
One thought is the o-ring groove weakens the guide.

Query:
Valve guide fit to head interference.
HD book value is .002" - .004". On Kibblewhite site, they recommend .0015" - .0025"
What does experience say? I'm surprised there's just half a thou overlap.

Parts showed up...
po.jpg
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