Rebuild engine from boxes

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Excalibur
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#136

Post by Excalibur »

Thanks for the super cool pointers. Very good food for thought.

Looked a bit closer... Dust cover only fits stem at upper.. It would need .020" -.040" tickled off height to clear. It's been rubbing for some time.
See witness mark...
20211003_120249.jpg
Discs. My thought is to buy 3 new 10" disc rotors with 50mm ID. They will fit hub spigots. Hub flange holes could be sleeved with top-hat sleeves.
Some consideration to bolt hole type needed as to countersunk or counterbore. Why are they counterbored at the rear in any case?

I have my eye on 3 x 41813-79 disc rotors for $150USD landed. Need more time to study this prospect. Is there anything glaringly obviously wrong here? This is really highlighting the fact that I can't simply order parts based on the year it is, because it's multiple years and some is repop.

Checked both wheels flange holes.
Rear: drive-side = 7/16", disc-side = 3/8"
Front is 7/16" both sides.

Frankly, chain alignment could be anywhere given the state of rest of bike.

Re RH main race. Harley Dave says he typically would send shaft, housing and oversize rollers to machine shop, instructing them to size race to fit. I suppose it comes down to being practical and economics. I mean the alternative is to hone till race cleans up, then source correct fit rollers to suit. Such rollers may or may not be in the country.
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#137

Post by nifty »

Exc,
Welcome to the ongoing joys of owning a “bargain price custom Harley” thrown together by clueless PO.

Re fork bearing dust cover:
Both Roodog & myself suspect you may have a lower dust shield in upper position (and no lower shield).

Have you compared your shield dimensions to those previously posted?

Your frame cups don’t look right either, could just be deceptive in pics, but OE 48311-60 frame cups have a small machined step, which OE 48362-38A or 48361-80 DUST SHIELD (upper) fits closely over (as per Roodog’s “umbrella” description), OD of dust shield and OD of cup almost same. You may have poorly made repop frame cups.

Have you looked at your Pan for comparison and maybe measured its dust shield OD?

Re dual disc front hub:
To the best of my knowledge, steel shovel hubs have 3/8 “clearance” holes for rotor bolts, this is corroborated by corresponding 3/8” bolts being called out in parts books. These “clearance” holes are sloppy, but you can’t get a 7/16” bolt in them (and without at least a 4140 top-hat spacer, shouldn’t try to put a 5/16” bolt in them).

Re your pic showing hub & 5/16” countersunk SHCS
“Popped a front disc off. Bolts are 5/16", holes in hub 7/16". Mentioned earlier but disc center is about 60mm while hub is 50mm. Both discs are slightly cupped. One measures within .007" of minimum. So, what should this have for discs and bolts. For countersunk bolts to be 7/16" they'd need a relatively small head. Is that a rear hub on the front? Is that even possible? What's the work-around? ”

The ½ hex of your 5/16 nyloc nut in pic appears to exhibit evidence of trying to bury itself in 7/16” hub hole (likely to loosen, shear off bolts when you need them most).

The 5/16”countersunk SHCS, partially unsupported due to 7/16” hole, has probably contributed to “cupped”/distorted front discs.

Its this kind of potentially lethal “idiot engineering” that gives non stock vehicles a bad name and invites draconian legislation.

Re discs/rotors:
Are your rotors definitely 10”?

Late discs are thinner than Shovel discs, you may have crap AM discs based on reduced OD twinkie disc?

41813-79 rotor, 10”, may have counter-bored bolt holes, used with 3/8” hex head bolts, special shallow/ thin hex head bolts at rear to clear caliper support (front normal. depth hex head bolts) FLH front & rear L78-80, can be retrofitted to 72,

41198-73 bolt (for rotor), 3/8” with special shallow/thin hex head, used with 41806-72B & 41813-79 rotors at rear.

With “custom” rear caliper mount, you might get away with normal depth hex head bolts at rear, but you have to check.

Increased MC fluid pressure/caliper clamping pressure will increase load on disc-hub interface.
Which illustrates why “cause & effect” is the basis for all good science, including mechanics.
………………………
Re
“Re RH main race. Harley Dave says he typically would send shaft, housing and oversize rollers to machine shop, instructing them to size race to fit. I suppose it comes down to being practical and economics. I mean the alternative is to hone till race cleans up, then source correct fit rollers to suit. Such rollers may or may not be in the country.”

No, giving the pinion race a light line-lap (not hone) would indicate state of race and be a guide to state of alignment and indicate what size it might clean up at.
If it cleans up nice, competent person, bore gauge, micrometer and simple math will deliver required roller size.

Me, given the sustained pounding that has so obviously gone on, I’d also want to know if race inserts in both cases are still round, tight and still in-line with each other, maybe that’s just me.

There is not much time difference between experienced person plug-fit and measure fit methods. Properly executed plug fit is less likely to have a glitch. But with poor stocks of rollers you are stuck with measure fit anyway.

Whatever method, accurately measure every new roller, reject any variant OD, quality control aint what it used to be and one odd roller bigger than the rest will ruin your day.

Some situations don’t have viable work-arounds.
Good Luck
Nifty
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#138

Post by Excalibur »

nifty wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:30 am Exc,
Welcome to the ongoing joys of owning a “bargain price custom Harley” thrown together by clueless PO.
Yes, they must delight in riding around on a prayer.
nifty wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:30 am Re fork bearing dust cover:
Both Roodog & myself suspect you may have a lower dust shield in upper position (and no lower shield).
Have you compared your shield dimensions to those previously posted?
The DC only goes onto stem so far. See pic..
kjh1.jpg
nifty wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:30 am Your frame cups don’t look right either, could just be deceptive in pics, but OE 48311-60 frame cups have a small machined step, which OE 48362-38A or 48361-80 DUST SHIELD (upper) fits closely over (as per Roodog’s “umbrella” description), OD of dust shield and OD of cup almost same. You may have poorly made repop frame cups.
Have you looked at your Pan for comparison and maybe measured its dust shield OD?
Doesn't surprise it has repop neck cups. My Pan has a jam-nut/DC that looks like RooDogs' pic.
nifty wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:30 am Re dual disc front hub:
To the best of my knowledge, steel shovel hubs have 3/8 “clearance” holes for rotor bolts, this is corroborated by corresponding 3/8” bolts being called out in parts books. These “clearance” holes are sloppy, but you can’t get a 7/16” bolt in them (and without at least a 4140 top-hat spacer, shouldn’t try to put a 5/16” bolt in them).
Re your pic showing hub & 5/16” countersunk SHCS
“Popped a front disc off. Bolts are 5/16", holes in hub 7/16". Mentioned earlier but disc center is about 60mm while hub is 50mm. Both discs are slightly cupped. One measures within .007" of minimum. So, what should this have for discs and bolts. For countersunk bolts to be 7/16" they'd need a relatively small head. Is that a rear hub on the front? Is that even possible? What's the work-around? ”
The ½ hex of your 5/16 nyloc nut in pic appears to exhibit evidence of trying to bury itself in 7/16” hub hole (likely to loosen, shear off bolts when you need them most).
The 5/16”countersunk SHCS, partially unsupported due to 7/16” hole, has probably contributed to “cupped”/distorted front discs.
Its this kind of potentially lethal “idiot engineering” that gives non stock vehicles a bad name and invites draconian legislation.
You picked it. PO did this:
probably I make some 4140 tophats to adapt rotor bolts.
kjh3.jpg
nifty wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:30 am Re discs/rotors:
Are your rotors definitely 10”?
Yes, 10". All 3 are 10".
kjh2.jpg
nifty wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:30 am Late discs are thinner than Shovel discs, you may have crap AM discs based on reduced OD twinkie disc?
41813-79 rotor, 10”, may have counter-bored bolt holes, used with 3/8” hex head bolts, special shallow/ thin hex head bolts at rear to clear caliper support (front normal. depth hex head bolts) FLH front & rear L78-80, can be retrofitted to 72,
41198-73 bolt (for rotor), 3/8” with special shallow/thin hex head, used with 41806-72B & 41813-79 rotors at rear.
With “custom” rear caliper mount, you might get away with normal depth hex head bolts at rear, but you have to check.
Increased MC fluid pressure/caliper clamping pressure will increase load on disc-hub interface.
Which illustrates why “cause & effect” is the basis for all good science, including mechanics.
44137-77A points to a Shovel/Sportster rotor. Good thought on disc bolt head clearance. Logically, the taper head bolts would suit all applications as far as clearance goes.
nifty wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:30 am No, giving the pinion race a light line-lap (not hone) would indicate state of race and be a guide to state of alignment and indicate what size it might clean up at.
If it cleans up nice, competent person, bore gauge, micrometer and simple math will deliver required roller size.
Me, given the sustained pounding that has so obviously gone on, I’d also want to know if race inserts in both cases are still round, tight and still in-line with each other, maybe that’s just me.
There is not much time difference between experienced person plug-fit and measure fit methods. Properly executed plug fit is less likely to have a glitch. But with poor stocks of rollers you are stuck with measure fit anyway.
Whatever method, accurately measure every new roller, reject any variant OD, quality control aint what it used to be and one odd roller bigger than the rest will ruin your day.
Good tip re check roller size are all same. Will review the situation. Once lockdown level eases, I'll check what rollers are on the shelf.
nifty wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:30 am Some situations don’t have viable work-arounds.
Good Luck
Nifty
Lucky I don't have to be constrained by what is original..
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#139

Post by nifty »

Exc.
Sorry to ruin your party, but...
A few minutes on Google tells me 44137-77A ROTOR10", is for Sportster/Superglide narrow fork, rotor ID: 60mm, Mounting Holes: 5/16" Countersunk.
Which puts you right back where you were, except a chunk of change poorer.
XL & FX dual disc front hubs are ally, have corresponding enlarged housing step which requires bigger bore disc, they also have 5/16" threads tapped directly into hub, no flanges, no nuts.

Ditto Google tells me your 44137-79 S rotors are also from Sportster/Superglide narrow fork.
The narrow fork needs countersunk bolts to squeeze everything in.

Start with discs made for FL type steel hubs, they might not be the cheapest, but will be closer to what you need.
If you are thinking of drilling/countersinking hardened stainless discs, good luck with that.

What is Timken number of your upper cone?

Nifty
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#140

Post by Excalibur »

Makes sense and it's why I seemed to recognize the discs. They were what my old '80 FXEF I had all them years ago. It was narrow glide and had cast ally mags and countersunk screws up front.

Agree, start with FL disc from steel hub. FYI Deluxe Restorations list 2 types for them.
41813-79
41813-79A
Stated fitment identical for both.

As I see it, either would do. There's enough clearance on the front for any bolt type and the rear can be engineered with suitable clearance. Probably I replace the rear brake caliper and bracket in any case. Studying some of those very affordable rear billet calipers in the market...
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#141

Post by RUBONE »

If you use that wrong dust cover on the top bearings it will serve to bring water into it, not deflect it. The top cover MUST be larger diameter than the upper cup to function. Insisting on using wrong parts is foolish at best.
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#142

Post by nifty »

Exc,
Re bearing cover:
I'm with Rubone, but on further reflection, whilst your top cover still looks way wrong, your cover can't be a 60 up lower cover, because these fit inside the bore of 60 up frame cup. Then again your frame cups also look weird.
Furthermore, your stem being bigger OD than upper bearing area OD leads me to suspect lower bearing must be different to upper bearing (at least bigger ID) this would be strange indeed. Or is there just a burr preventing cover sliding down stem?
Also, there was a particular reason that I asked you for the Timken number of upper bearing cone.

Re discs:
Your link to -79 shows counter-bored bolt holes
Your link to -79A shows countersunk bolt holes
Neither ad gives actual ID or bolt hole size, or suitability for steel hub.
For the steel hub, you need the small ID disc with 3/8" bolt holes.
Remember there were FLH cast wheels too, which might also take 10" discs with bigger ID and 5/16 bolts as for ally hub of spoked (and cast) XL-FX front wheel.
More homework required
Nifty
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#143

Post by RooDog »

Normally, on many fork stems, the main length of the stem is necked down below where the top bearing is a slip fit 'til it reaches the bottom where the dust cover rides and the OD is such that the bearing is a press fit. So, the smaller of the two dust covers still slides all the way to the bottom of the stem. The DC cover shown must be some sort of queer part, and not correct for this fork assembly..... Once assembled correctly, or otherwise, the lower bearing is nearly impossible to remove intact in a reusable condition, so get it right the first time, no?
....RooDog....
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#144

Post by nifty »

Exc,
Re disc bolts:
I made a mistake…
According to 41-84 OE FL parts book

1604 SCREW, 3/8-16 x 1-1/2, countersunk flat socket head. With threadlock dab for countersunk discs only, steel hubs & cast wheels 81-84at least (countersunk at rear to clear caliper mount)
1605 SCREW, 3/8-16 x 1-1/2, countersunk flat socket head. Plain threads for countersunk discs only, steel hubs & cast wheels 81-84at least (countersunk at rear to clear caliper mount)
7778 LOCKNUT, 3/8-16 x 7/16 x 9/16 hex. (self-locking nut, used with 1604 & 1605 on steel hubs

4119 -73 BOLT, 3/8-16 x 1, thin hex. hd. (front only 81 & later) cast wheels only, counterbored discs only

Re discs & hardware, according to Zodiac:

41806-72B rotor 10”, has 2” ID & counterbored 3/8” bolt holes
44137-79 rotor 10”, has 2” ID & countersunk 3/8” bolt holes (this seems to contradict OE parts book??)
https://flipbook.zodiac.nl/en/bikersbook/?page=872

According to Zodiac, both V-Twin & Zodiac make replacement FXWG front hubs with 5/16” bolt holes

For more trustworthy data for Discs & hardware for 10” dual disc, steel hub, see OE FX-FXWG parts books

Beware AM advertising, many will say their blah blah super disc fits, but neglect to say, only if you also use ID spacer and smaller dia fasteners.

Currently looks to me like correctly made repop of 41806-72B rotor, together with corresponding appropriate hardware, will get you out of the hole.

But FX FXWG parts books will tell you more.

Even with 3/8" bolts you might also consider grade 8 flatwashers under grade 8 self-locking nuts

Nifty
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#145

Post by nifty »

Exc,
I’ve been thinking outside the box again (and have also spent way too many hours doing your research, there is no way I will ever use this info !).

VT No 23-0370, OE 44210-79 rotor, 10 inch, plain flat, drilled swept area plus 5 big lightening holes, Inner Diameter: 2", FLT 1979-1983 Front , V-Twin pic appears to show large countersunk bolt holes, states use with bolt kit #8792-5 (according to V-twin) thickness of .240", zinc plated steel. (No data re PCD of mounting holes, looks right by micrometer eyeball, steel hub and most discs into twinkies are 3-1/4" (82.5mm) PCD. Notch for speedo drive tends to confirm small ID.

VT No 8792-5 Chrome front or rear disc bolt kit, thread size 7/16" X 14 X 1-1/4" fits FL 1980-1981 Front only; FLT 1980-1981 Front and Rear. OEM 1643

8792-5 is also a colony number, 5 x chromed 7/16"-14 x 1"? Tapered flat head bolts (CS SHCS) Front or Rear Rotor to Hub Screw Kit 7/16-14 x 1-1/4? F.S OEM 1643

Bolts tend to confirm 7/16” CS SHCS used with 44210-79 discs

If above advertising actually close to true, 44210-79 rotor may be the answer to your prayers and mount perfectly to your steel hub with 7/16” bolt holes, if so, you may also need longer CS SHCS for steel hub, (cos FLT has cast wheels) plus nuts etc.
Tedd to the rescue, or there are NOS & used OE undrilled 44210-79 rotors on ebay.
But front end will thank you for lighter discs.

Who would have dreamed that FLT could be so useful? (if it works)

Another free hint, to prevent rounding out your disc bolt Allen hexes, hold with Allen key or socket & tighten/loosen nut with ring spanner.

Nifty
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#146

Post by nifty »

Too good to be true?
VTwin 23-0371 as for 23-0370 but stainless

https://vtwincatalog.com/dl/index.php?p ... &dl_pg=550

Nifty
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#147

Post by nifty »

Checked Tedd's website
Both early FLT rotors NLA, need to look for stockist with some still on shelves, or ebay
I'm done
Nifty
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#148

Post by nifty »

Gremlins, now Tedd says he has the zinc ones https://www2.vtwinmfg.com/10-drilled-fr ... steel.html
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#149

Post by Excalibur »

Nifty, wow that is really thorough research. Awesome. Thanks. Studying..

Scratching around earlier today I found on Gold Coast Harley website, 44210-79 is superseded by 44210-92

This is the upper bearing number.
stbrg.jpg
Dust cover.
dc.jpg
Correction: I made the dust cover slide to the bottom of the stem with a bit of insistent persuasion. At first I thought it was the chrome build up but it turned out to be vice jaw burrs. Sorry, should have put my #3.0 glasses on a bit sooner.
After adding the cheaper ($9.99) Ebay dust cover to cart it lands for $31usd. It's a lot for a piece of folded tin with a hole. :roll: I just have to have a go at making it... and even if I did buy it, when would it get here with the current state of shipping.??

Nifty, are you favoring stainless for disc material??

Check-fitted the front end. Sorted out all correct length bolts, washers etc. Am not seeing any other major issues not already mentioned. Be great to solve the top dust cover issue to stop water ingress as pointed out by Robbie.

Hoping to get to local swapmeet end of month if it goes ahead and doesn't get cancelled.
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Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#150

Post by nifty »

Exc,
Re “thorough research”, anything less is really only guessing, incomplete, often misleading and will bite you.

Re stainless steel:
Stainless doesn’t rust, hardened stainless seems to be the only game in town for sintered pads, as I recall it was you who was earlier musing about using sintered pads.

Re your 2.115” OD for your dust shield:
Fairly darn close, 0.015” bigger OD than genuine 48365-48A lower shield, details of which I posted some pages back. Provided your slightly oversize lower shield is round and burr free it should still fit within the approx 2.130” ID counterbore above cup in genuine 60 up frame cup. Rolled edge of lower shield is supposed to form a labyrinth type device in lower frame cup. Mock up lower shield, bearing cone & frame cup with bearing cup installed, ensure sharp edge of shield doesn’t scrape against frame cup. And put you glasses on when you do it.

Re Your Timken Cone L44643:
My research shows that L44643 cone is correct for 60 up frame cup, which you don’t appear to have.

Re 44210-79 is superseded by 44210-92
Well Sherlock, you might be right, go ahead and buy three OE discs for around $175.99 USD each, plus freight and taxes, and hope when you get them, they fit your custom application. http://partsfinder.onlinemicrofiche.com ... FLT025.gif
HD80FLT025.gif


Nifty
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