Rebuild engine from boxes

Requesting advice

All Shovelhead topics
Post Reply
RooDog
Senior Member
Posts: 5327
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:00 pm
Bikes: 1950 Panhead, Resto-Mod
1968 90", 5 Speed Shovelhead,
1984 Home Built Custom Evo 100" Bagger
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
Has thanked: 2801 times
Been thanked: 2158 times

Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#166

Post by RooDog »

Aftermarket speedo looks good.
That O Ring is wrong and interferes with the guide seating properly. There is a gasket, H-D PN 18196-51, called for 1951-'65, but was not called for in Shovelheads.
Personally, I use liquid Teflon pipe sealant on the guide to ease installation and as a sealer between the outside of the guide and the head. Always heat the head to about 200*F, and leave the guide in the freezer overnight for ease of installation. This all works for me.....
....RooDog....
Excalibur
Senior Member
Posts: 882
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:01 pm
Bikes: '61 Pan
'83 FXWG
'74 T150
'41 Indian, '29Norton
'25 HD
'13 JAP
'12 BSA,
'11&'12 NH
'08 Triumph
Location: NZ
Has thanked: 505 times
Been thanked: 361 times

Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#167

Post by Excalibur »

Agreed. Speedo looks better than I thought.

Roodog, we're on the same page with the Teflon sealer. That's what I used for the Pan (about 6 years ago).

Ended up pulling all the guides. It's turned out another can of worms. Rear exhaust guide is +.008" and the guide hole is horrible. It has carbon patch in area that's not in proper contact with guide. Other guides though std have holes (in head) up to +.0015" out-of-round.

What's a good way of cleaning the guide hole/s up. What's the tolerance on out-of-round holes?
Thanks for any tips, etc

Tool I made for Pan guide install on the STD heads. 2015.
gd.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Mongrel505558
Senior Member
Posts: 1418
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:46 pm
Bikes: Rigid Panhead bobber, 68 Shovelhead, 2000 Road King Police bike, 2000 Dyna Wide Glide
Location: Rhode Island
Has thanked: 990 times
Been thanked: 701 times

Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#168

Post by Mongrel505558 »

Excalibur wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:19 am Agreed. Speedo looks better than I thought.

Roodog, we're on the same page with the Teflon sealer. That's what I used for the Pan (about 6 years ago).

Ended up pulling all the guides. It's turned out another can of worms. Rear exhaust guide is +.008" and the guide hole is horrible. It has carbon patch in area that's not in proper contact with guide. Other guides though std have holes (in head) up to +.0015" out-of-round.

What's a good way of cleaning the guide hole/s up. What's the tolerance on out-of-round holes?
Thanks for any tips, etc

Tool I made for Pan guide install on the STD heads. 2015.
gd.jpg
I would guess that the tolerance on out of round holes is max. dimension must be the size of the largest oversize guide available minus the interference fit. Making them round is beyond my abilities. Something that pilots off the seat maybe, or better yet if the head can be jigged in the exact position for some cutting operation. Seat should be re-cut piloted off the new guide no matter what.
Excalibur
Senior Member
Posts: 882
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:01 pm
Bikes: '61 Pan
'83 FXWG
'74 T150
'41 Indian, '29Norton
'25 HD
'13 JAP
'12 BSA,
'11&'12 NH
'08 Triumph
Location: NZ
Has thanked: 505 times
Been thanked: 361 times

Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#169

Post by Excalibur »

Turns out the hole with the broken guide has a ridge at the top of the hole. The ridge is exactly in the area of the o-ring groove. What I think happened is a PO hit the guide too hard, swaging the aluminum, collapsing it inward. Also cracking the cast iron guide in the process. The head may also have been overheated too?

Just as well I took Nifty's advice to machine guide top away, then drift it into the port. Should I have drifted it from port side, it would have had to squeeze its' way past the ridge. So thanks Nifty.

Studying the subject of HD guides I notice there's a wide range of thought with regard to the process of installing. Some were advocating installing with head at room temperature. Opposing thought had head heated to 500f!!
Still others did no measuring, rather they fitted the guide that gave the correct amount of resistance as to number of blows. Should a guide not resist enough, they'd knock it out and select the next over-size up.
I think I like measuring... :roll:

I need to get the guide hole issue settled so I can order guides. Planning to get local advice on how to clean the holes up so I can measure...
RooDog
Senior Member
Posts: 5327
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:00 pm
Bikes: 1950 Panhead, Resto-Mod
1968 90", 5 Speed Shovelhead,
1984 Home Built Custom Evo 100" Bagger
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
Has thanked: 2801 times
Been thanked: 2158 times

Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#170

Post by RooDog »

I agree with the guys who install the guides by feel if one has enough guides to pick & choose from because measurements are not always accurate. And for us old guys, if it feels right, it could very well be right, and if it feels wrong, as it has oh so many times, it probably is, but we did it anyway.....
....RooDog....
Excalibur
Senior Member
Posts: 882
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:01 pm
Bikes: '61 Pan
'83 FXWG
'74 T150
'41 Indian, '29Norton
'25 HD
'13 JAP
'12 BSA,
'11&'12 NH
'08 Triumph
Location: NZ
Has thanked: 505 times
Been thanked: 361 times

Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#171

Post by Excalibur »

That's right. These guys had boxlots of guides. They would've been working to a schedule. Product at a price, sorta thing.
Agreed about the "feel" of things. It's a very important skill to have as a fitter. Obviously the experience to know what's good, what's acceptable and what isn't, helps.

Despite the ugly exhaust guide bore being the way it is, the guide was not loose!

What I noticed about the out-of-roundedness is the wide measurement is adjacent the port side of the hole. I think it's because there's less metal around the guide boss there. Then I noticed there's a relief on the opposing side of the guide which is deliberately cast that way. I think engineers realized that fitting a guide at interference fits, it will always move toward where there's less metal support. In this case, the port doesn't offer much support to the guide boss so the cast in relief at 180° balances it. Hope this makes some sense. It's a bit hard to word it.. Sound reasonable or no?
RooDog
Senior Member
Posts: 5327
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:00 pm
Bikes: 1950 Panhead, Resto-Mod
1968 90", 5 Speed Shovelhead,
1984 Home Built Custom Evo 100" Bagger
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
Has thanked: 2801 times
Been thanked: 2158 times

Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#172

Post by RooDog »

May we have a picture.
I have never noticed anything other a perfectly cylindrical OD on the Rowe guides I have used....
But I will take another look in the morning.....

PS: If the guide was not loose, I would be tempted to use that same sized new one. I never liked forcing an over sized guide into a hole it wasn't welcome in. Use a little Teflon paste, and it should be OK.....
....RooDog....
Excalibur
Senior Member
Posts: 882
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:01 pm
Bikes: '61 Pan
'83 FXWG
'74 T150
'41 Indian, '29Norton
'25 HD
'13 JAP
'12 BSA,
'11&'12 NH
'08 Triumph
Location: NZ
Has thanked: 505 times
Been thanked: 361 times

Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#173

Post by Excalibur »

Pic of the recess cast into head. Comes ever so close to guide bore..
20211104_160934.jpg
20211104_160859.jpg
Reviewing it now, it can't be what I surmised above because the recess is on opposing ends of the guide bore compared to the port. It does form part of the drain from the intake though it doesn't need to be as big or as close to the guide bore. Obviously it's cast this way but why? Isn't omitting metal there going to reduce ultimate guide hole strength? Clever people design these things. They must have known something...

Inclined to agree with you RooDog. Replace with same size guide and leave well enough alone. I've tickled the ridge away from previous damage. Will double check measurements to be sure it's within the realms of reason. Guide was marked +.008" but who's to say some material wasn't skimmed off OD.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
RooDog
Senior Member
Posts: 5327
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:00 pm
Bikes: 1950 Panhead, Resto-Mod
1968 90", 5 Speed Shovelhead,
1984 Home Built Custom Evo 100" Bagger
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
Has thanked: 2801 times
Been thanked: 2158 times

Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#174

Post by RooDog »

People will do most anything to mechanical devices to make a repair, or an "improvement". But skimming a little of the OD isn't very likely as it could easily upset the concentricity of the guide. Best to measure the OD of your current guide to confirm it is +.008 as this is close to the limit of commercially available OS guides. And then order the same size.

As an aside, I have installed guides using a piloted punch and a 3# drilling hammer. The sound changes once the guide seats against the head, but in my naivete I struck the punch just one more time, to be sure, and managed to drive the guide through the head. I only did that one time, but I have always since listened to my ears for the sound of that guide going home.....
....RooDog....
Excalibur
Senior Member
Posts: 882
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:01 pm
Bikes: '61 Pan
'83 FXWG
'74 T150
'41 Indian, '29Norton
'25 HD
'13 JAP
'12 BSA,
'11&'12 NH
'08 Triumph
Location: NZ
Has thanked: 505 times
Been thanked: 361 times

Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#175

Post by Excalibur »

Been struggling to find case and rod rollers. Much of the problem is because USPS has suspended shipping to NZ. So I have to find a seller that has the sizes plus ships with alternative shipping. I learnt a lot by scratching around the various vendors sites. V-twin and Eastern are the brands that come up. Any reservations about either of these rollers? Currently querying Eastern rollers from a seller that ships by DHL.

Another issue still to sort is the crank thrust washers. You'll recall my replacements are bright yellow brass as though stamped from brass sheet. Harley Dave didn't like them either. More recently he said he'd brought in a pair of thrust washers and they were the same yellow brass material.

Buttoned the gearbox up. Bought 4140 steel to make the axles. Finished the front wheel bearing assembly. Two parts shipments en route. Getting there...
Excalibur
Senior Member
Posts: 882
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:01 pm
Bikes: '61 Pan
'83 FXWG
'74 T150
'41 Indian, '29Norton
'25 HD
'13 JAP
'12 BSA,
'11&'12 NH
'08 Triumph
Location: NZ
Has thanked: 505 times
Been thanked: 361 times

Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#176

Post by Excalibur »

Update:
Valve parts and a disc rotor turned up. This lot took 22 days via DHL e-commerce from US. Funnily this shipment leapfrogged another of my orders, shipped a week earlier. Tracking says it's still in US. Might be something to do with package weight, it's twice as heavy.

Made nice progress on axle making. These are machined from 4140 round bar. Threads were cut with stock and die. Front axle sleeve is a tight interference fit. Both axles will get welded on one end. Probably I TIG weld those because I can use the practice.
ax11.jpg
Studying front brake calipers. They have shims according to parts catalog, items 12 and 13. Am considering making these. Are they plain or coated steel? One shim is half cut away, is this ideal? What's been learnt about these over the years?
cshms.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
RooDog
Senior Member
Posts: 5327
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:00 pm
Bikes: 1950 Panhead, Resto-Mod
1968 90", 5 Speed Shovelhead,
1984 Home Built Custom Evo 100" Bagger
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
Has thanked: 2801 times
Been thanked: 2158 times

Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#177

Post by RooDog »

Excalibur wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:59 pm Been struggling to find case and rod rollers. Much of the problem is because USPS has suspended shipping to NZ. So I have to find a seller that has the sizes plus ships with alternative shipping. I learnt a lot by scratching around the various vendors sites. V-twin and Eastern are the brands that come up. Any reservations about either of these rollers? Currently querying Eastern rollers from a seller that ships by DHL.

Another issue still to sort is the crank thrust washers. You'll recall my replacements are bright yellow brass as though stamped from brass sheet. Harley Dave didn't like them either. More recently he said he'd brought in a pair of thrust washers and they were the same yellow brass material.

Buttoned the gearbox up. Bought 4140 steel to make the axles. Finished the front wheel bearing assembly. Two parts shipments en route. Getting there...
Fellas....
I am in the US. A brother in Germany reached out for my help getting him a part from Paughco, a US manufacturer,. My research led me to this company: Vital V-Twin Cycles.
https://vtwin.parts/model-year/classic-pre-1984
Who gladly ships internationally via DHL, and likes their service.
I know nothing about this company, but perhaps some others out there can chime in.....
All international shipping is bogged down at the ports of entry, the excuse being lack of labor due to The Covid, surely, governments have nothing to do with this problem as the world rotates on lively commerce....
....RooDog....
Excalibur
Senior Member
Posts: 882
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:01 pm
Bikes: '61 Pan
'83 FXWG
'74 T150
'41 Indian, '29Norton
'25 HD
'13 JAP
'12 BSA,
'11&'12 NH
'08 Triumph
Location: NZ
Has thanked: 505 times
Been thanked: 361 times

Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#178

Post by Excalibur »

RooDog, thanks for the thought on Vital. I had seen them though I don't know anyone getting parts off them either.
Will study prices and shipping costs for reference...
Raytag
Member
Posts: 469
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:09 am
Bikes: 1951 FL
Location: Germany
Has thanked: 84 times
Been thanked: 230 times

Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#179

Post by Raytag »

I wasn`t too impressed with those calipers but mine were worn out too so I didn`t screw with them and fitted Harrison Billet-4
https://www.billet.co.uk/index2.html?ho ... ~mainFrame
No drilling, filing needed at the lower legs
They aren`t that big in size and really slim when compared with other AM manufacturers. And they were accepted by the german TUV
Performance is phenomenal
This is a 10" rotor in a 21" wheel and I was basically always 2-up with camping gear thru the Alps. Every 15.000 miles I needed a new rotor
The neat thing is that I was able to purchase pads for Aprilias etc in any bike store for less than 20 bucks. Ok , this was 15 years ago :?

The shims on the OEM caliper were plain but some material with zinc and chrome. Not 100% rust resistant
The half shims I saw on many calipers (cars as well) and at the time we guessed it was a meassure to keep the pads from sticking on the pistons.
Shovel-Buddies of mine didn`t install them at all or they crumbled to bits and they never felt a difference

BTW: Nice axles :!:
You should have a PM
ray
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Excalibur
Senior Member
Posts: 882
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:01 pm
Bikes: '61 Pan
'83 FXWG
'74 T150
'41 Indian, '29Norton
'25 HD
'13 JAP
'12 BSA,
'11&'12 NH
'08 Triumph
Location: NZ
Has thanked: 505 times
Been thanked: 361 times

Re: Rebuild engine from boxes

#180

Post by Excalibur »

Ray, thanks for the thoughts.

Probably I'll fit up what it has, get it through compliance and then look at sorting out shortcomings. The HD calipers were very poor on my long-gone Shovel. When I first bought that bike I was amazed how lousy the brakes were. I ended up getting them working but always wanted more.

Wow 15k miles for a rotor. Is that due to pad material? Sintered perhaps?

My thought about the half shims is they may be to prevent grabbing. Looks like it puts more pressure on the trailing edge of pad, with respect to rotation.
What I liked about some shims is they have teflon? coating. This gives a sort of self lubricant aspect so they don't squeal. This sound is a high frequency vibration of pad-steel-backing against the piston.
Post Reply

Return to “Shovelhead”