Panhead repairs

All Panhead related discussions, questions etc.
kitabel
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Re: Panhead repairs

#16

Post by kitabel »

W/r/t/ C932: this is AKA 660.
Guess what the H-D part number for cam bearings used to be?
660-(year).
Coincidence?

IMO good choice
Lowbikemike
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Re: Panhead repairs

#17

Post by Lowbikemike »

Is that a weld from a previous repair under the red goop?
Excalibur
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Re: Panhead repairs

#18

Post by Excalibur »

Could electroplating required extra "thou" be an option? By the way, what is the required interference fit?
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Re: Panhead repairs

#19

Post by Andygears »

I agree the new bushing from the correct material would be the best solution. If the case has been welded, the hole may have been mislocated when rebored. I think you will have to split the cases and work on the bench with the right case and cam cover. Then, some juggling of the gears to get a correct mesh with the pinion gear.

It would be great if someone would post a print, diagram showing accurate dimensions from center lines of all the right side gear case components. Cam, breather, CB shaft, idler shaft and of course pinion/crank C/L. Somebody has this on the back of an envelope and would appreciate a share.

Andygears
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Re: Panhead repairs

#20

Post by MurrayS »

Thanks for the comments everyone, I really appreciate it. It is not going to be an easy fix is it.

I'm leaning towards trying the better quality bearing first and if that is is not a good fit the engine will be coming out. (Didn't really want to do that but if that's what is required to look after this old bike so be it.)

Yes that is a weld inside the case. Looks very tidy and no grinding marks in evidence. Actually, other than what we are discussing here, any previous repairs seem to be well done with no dodgy work found.

I wish I could say the same thing about my WLA.

Cheers

Murray
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Re: Panhead repairs

#21

Post by jobo12 »

Locktite stud & bearing mount?
Joe
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Re: Panhead repairs

#22

Post by MurrayS »

Hello again,

My 52 EL repairs have been on the back burner for quite a while, a victim of slow post (for parts) and distractions from other projects as well as being blessed with other bikes to ride.

Anyway, I have the cam and gears all sorted, dealt with rebuilding the oil pump and a few other things along the way. My attempt at generator rebuild was unsuccessful so I gave up and now have a Cycle Electric 12V on the bench. Installation and conversion to 12 volt looks fairly straight forward except for the questions I now ask here.

My CE Genny came as ordered by me with an after market gear. The CE instruction sheets warns to ensure a firm fitting gear. I get that and herein is the problem.

The shaft measures out as within the range stated by CE. (noted in photo)

The supplied gear is a 13 tooth with the diameter as stated in my photo.

I have on hand two other gears, both new and both 14 tooth. Their internal diameters are as noted in my photo.

The 13 tooth (top) is easily pushed onto the shaft by hand. Feels firm when the nut is tightened. To try and quantify the fit, it can then be pulled of the shaft by hand.

The 14 tooth (middle) is a bit tighter but still an easy fit.

The WLA gear (bottom) is a fairly firm fit. Easy to push onto the shaft but at least when it is pulled tight by the nut, it requires a puller to remove it.

So, what is the way forward?

Can the 13T fit be improved? Loctite?

Can I use one of the 14T gears? If so, the WLA gear is the obvious choice. Will it fit and perform with the oil slinger in situ?

Thanks for reading thus far and again thanks to all those who have helped me in the past.

I'll load the photo shortly.

Cheers

Murray
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Softail Deluxe.
Excalibur
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Re: Panhead repairs

#23

Post by Excalibur »

Murrays generator pic ..
x2.jpeg
x2.jpeg (79.04 KiB) Viewed 401 times
Sorry pic rolled onto its' side when posted. Admin, please correct, thanks.
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Re: Panhead repairs

#24

Post by nifty »

My thoughts, without looking it up, I don't know what was used on earlier flatheads etc, or how well their gears may mesh with BT idler.

What I think I know is :
The whole concept of gear being a good fit on shaft is to eliminate any chance of it loosening in service.
Push on and pull off by hand is too loose.
Generator gears have load reversals during normal use, when revs increased & decreased, which is what is trying too flog the spline fit loose.
Some of the higher strength Loctites may withstand these load reversals, but one day you might want to remove the gear without using oxy torch to kill the Loctite and risk of damage to your gear & new generator.
13T was standard on BT with -65A
14T was standard on Sportsters with -65A (to drop the RPM of the generator due to the typically higher RPM usage of the XL).
A 14T gear slows the armature speed.
If you don't do much night riding you can possibly get away with 14T on kickstart only BT
Check carefully that whatever gear you use meshes nicely with idler, not just having some backlash.
I would be asking Cycle Electric why they supplied one of their generators with a gear which does not meet their own specs.
Nifty
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Re: Panhead repairs

#25

Post by MurrayS »

Thanks for the comments Nifty, I appreciate you taking the time.

CE was not the seller, it was an on line retailer but yes, I will be mentioning this to him.

I don't do a lot of night riding on the old bikes but it would be nice to run the headlight during the day. Later after I have it sorted and running, I'll look at fitting LED'd.

Once again thanks a lot.

Murray
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Re: Panhead repairs

#26

Post by Mongrel505558 »

I'm afraid that unless you can find a needle bearing that fits correctly you're going to have to split the cases. As mentioned before, switching to a bushing will require line reaming with the cover bushing (splitting the cases) and a different cam. Based on the amount of metal debris you show in one of your photos, I would split the cases just for peace of mind. They're probably fairly debris-free, but all it takes is one little sliver to wreck a motor. In any case, you don't want to continue to run with a loose cam bearing. I also agree that the J-grind is a great cam for a daily rider. It's a little hotter than stock, but not enough lift to create problems with the valve train. It's truly a bolt-in cam. I would get a couple of gauge pins and measure the cam gear so you can get the right fit with the pinion gear. Now is the time with everything apart.

Nice bike, by the way.

Jim
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Re: Panhead repairs

#27

Post by Excalibur »

Could gear fit be solved with electroplating? Only needing a couple thou to make the difference. I've used copper plating on bronze guides and bushings some years ago. Also had various things hard-chromed over the years. Maybe nickel could be suitable plating material for this repair? Actually, a friend recently learned how to nickel plate from Youtube and proceeded to successfully plate guitar parts. The process sounded simple. In the example of a gear, the teeth could be masked with paint. Then once plating is complete, paint could be dissolved. Has anyone done such?
Seems a shame gears that don't fit are such commonplace, even I have a gear with the same fault!
Excalibur
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Re: Panhead repairs

#28

Post by Excalibur »

The question that has to be asked..
Is anyone supplying correct fitting generator gears in the repop market these days?
Andygears
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Re: Panhead repairs

#29

Post by Andygears »

Excalibur wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:43 pm The question that has to be asked..
Is anyone supplying correct fitting generator gears in the repop market these days?
In my humble opinion, I don’t know how much better the gears could fit. If the measurements in the picture are accurate, there is only 0.0004” (4 ten thousandths)per side on the 13 tooth gear. And you add the relationship of the internal gear spline( internal width, location, parallel to centerline, etc.) , it would seem to me that tight slide on fit is about right when it will be locked down with a nut. Much tighter than that and some folks will break out a hammer and ….

Andygears
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Re: Panhead repairs

#30

Post by Excalibur »

For everyone's info, this is the Cycle Electric Inc caution currently under consideration...
ce.jpg
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