Hard shifting, clutch hub spinning with clutch disengaged in neutral

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panama86
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Hard shifting, clutch hub spinning with clutch disengaged in neutral

#1

Post by panama86 »

I ride a 51 pan with jockey shift and foot clutch. Ever since I have had this bike together (was a basket case) it's never quite shifted right, mostly between 1st, neutral and 2nd. 3rd and 4th are fine and smooth as they should be.

I thought it was my ratchet lid for a while and had posted another thread on that but discovered that was not the issue. I am at a loss with what else to try here.

With the clutch disengaged in 1st or 2nd for example the hub is stationary as it should be. But when in neutral, hot or cold, the hub is spinning. This causes the clunk into first and I think is also causing hard shifting from 1st to 2nd. With clutch disengaged in neutral, I can grab the hub with my hand and hold it but I can feel some drag fighting my hand. The second I let go it starts spinning again. If I stop rolling in first with the clutch engaged and try find neutral it is impossible. It will just skip over neutral straight to second and then straight back to first or not allow me to move up to second at all. Seems to get worse when warm.

This is what I'm working with / what I've tried:
- Jockey shift with foot clutch
- New 5 finger hub
- New 1.5" BDL belt correctly adjusted (not too tight)
- Ram jet retainer
- Alloy pressure plate, also tried a stock steel pressure plate with no luck
- New repro stock 3 1/2 plate clutch pack with new steels. Not anti rattler, also tried another set of kevlar plates with anti rattle steels with same result
- Stock foot clutch springs, the rocker clutch type with thicker tighter coil. Adjusted to 31/32" measured with caliper so the plate is straight. Also tried a set of hand clutch springs with same result.
- Heavy duty wafer style throwout bearing, also tried the cone type with same results.
- Correct pushrod length
- Clutch rod adjusted with roughly 1/8" of free play
- 75w90 gear oil in the box
- When adjusted, clutch arm almost touches primary tab on oil bag when engaged and contacts ratched lid when disengaged, allowing full travel of the arm.
- Everything is squeaky clean in the clutch, as it's a new hub there's no grooving on the fingers or wear on the blocks in the clutch drum.

I am at my witts end here, only thing I haven't tried yet is the "big fix" clutch bearing kit, but as the hub and drum are fresh and as are bearings i doubt that would resolve the issue. Also wondering if the 75w90 oil is too thin.

What am I missing here?

Cheers.
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Re: Hard shifting, clutch hub spinning with clutch disengaged in neutral

#2

Post by blewcrab »

what about turning the 5 nuts ccw 1 click each to ease the tension on the disks .....jus a shot in the dark
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Re: Hard shifting, clutch hub spinning with clutch disengaged in neutral

#3

Post by RooDog »

Re your 3 1/2 discs. Is the 1/2 disc solid or is it the OEM buffer style with the small fingers extending from the surface? These are meant to cushion the clutch engagement, but may also tend to cause clutch drag, as you are experiencing. I would remove said buffer disc and replace it with another fiber disc, and see if you then get a clean break, I trust you have the discs and plates in proper sequence beginning with a fiber against the hub and ending with the 1/2 disc under the pressure plate.
BTW: That 5 stud hub is a scam, the original three studs were scienced out to be geometrically correct for the task at hand, but 5 studs look better with an open belt.
If all else fails a modern aftermarket clutch may be your salvation. I like my Rivera Primo, but there are others from the likes of BDL, or Barnett, for example. They all feature a big sealed ball bearing rather the loose rollers of the H-D clutch, and solve a lot of problems, such as you are having.....
But that's just my opinion, for what ever that is worth.....
....RooDog....
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Re: Hard shifting, clutch hub spinning with clutch disengaged in neutral

#4

Post by RooDog »

Also, with that Ramjet Retainer did you install the 52 long rollers? On my Panny I found those rollers to be a tight fit with a lot of drag, I believe that is the reason I was having my problems getting a clean break since they didn't fit as loosely as the OEM staggered rollers, and didn't spin freely. Just a thought. The AM clutches with the sealed ball bearing spin very freely.....
....RooDog....
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Re: Hard shifting, clutch hub spinning with clutch disengaged in neutral

#5

Post by 59Panman »

HD calls for 60 wt. oil in the transmission like your motor.
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Re: Hard shifting, clutch hub spinning with clutch disengaged in neutral

#6

Post by socalrider »

Avoid long rollers. When they heat up they expand and bind.the five finger hubs just provide additional sources for binding. You need to take it apart.with the hub out the drum take each fiber plate one at a time,put it on the hub and move it through the ENTIRE length of the hub stubs.They should all move freely. If you get any binding and if its at a common point on all the fibers, check the studs and make sure all of them including the non threads ones are perfectly perpendicular to the hub.if the studs check out , open the holes in the fiber plate that is binding just enough to eliminate the bind. Only open the holes that need it.also check that all the studs are tight in the hub and have not come loose.them aftermarket hubs are notorious for that.once you got all the fiber plates moving freely, move on to the steel plates and the drum. Place each one in,one at a time to make sure they move freely in the entire length of the drum. Eliminate any binding by filing the steel plate.rotate each steel plate and fiber disk as you check for binding to make sure they move freely in all positions within the drum and hub.. Doing this procedure has worked for me on my mousetrapped pans. Good luck.
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Re: Hard shifting, clutch hub spinning with clutch disengaged in neutral

#7

Post by socalrider »

Also wanted to add, that the 31/32 dimension that the factory recommends is,I believe, based on factory fiber and steel discs. All the aftermarket discs i have seen are thinner than the factory ones. The 31/32 dimension is no good when using aftermarket components.it will be less which means more pressure on the springs and on the studs which could be a contributing factor to the studs coming loose prematurely.On a foot clutch you probably wont notice the additional force it takes to disengage the clutch,but on a mousetrap you certainly will. I tossed all my aftermarket steel plates and fibers and sourced some good used oem ones. Now both my mousetrapped pans clutches work perfectly and lever pulls in with only 2 of my arthritis ridden fingers. I. Never goose the throttle, i let the bike take the time it needs to reach the desired speed so i never experienced any slippage either.these old bikes run best when using oem components and engine specs in my opinion.EXCEPT the valve lifter assembly. I think that is the weak link in these engines. I have velvatouch touch in both my pans and could not be happier. Having said that , the oem lifter assembly components are far superior to any aftermarket parts of similar design.
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Re: Hard shifting, clutch hub spinning with clutch disengaged in neutral

#8

Post by awander »

socalrider wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:32 pm Also wanted to add, that the 31/32 dimension that the factory recommends is,I believe, based on factory fiber and steel discs. All the aftermarket discs i have seen are thinner than the factory ones. The 31/32 dimension is no good when using aftermarket components....
Hmm, I think that the 31/32" dimension is taken from the Clutch Pressure Plate to the Clutch Releasing Disc, and is totally independent of the thickness of any of the clutch plates.

Changing the thickness of the clutch plates will move the Pressure Plate/Releasing Disc assembly further in or out of the Clutch Shell, but you should still set the springs to the same length/compression.
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Re: Hard shifting, clutch hub spinning with clutch disengaged in neutral

#9

Post by socalrider »

You are right Andy!i am wrong. My apologies to anyone i may have confused.Now that i think back to why i went with the thicker plates ,it was because with the thinner ones i had to turn the adjusting nuts deeper onto the hub stubs to get to the 31/32 dimension. I almost ran out of thread on the threaded studs to get to the 31/32 dimension. Changing to the oem thicker plates solved that problem.thanks for catching that Andy!
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Re: Hard shifting, clutch hub spinning with clutch disengaged in neutral

#10

Post by RooDog »

socalrider wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:27 pm You are right Andy!i am wrong. My apologies to anyone i may have confused.Now that i think back to why i went with the thicker plates ,it was because with the thinner ones i had to turn the adjusting nuts deeper onto the hub stubs to get to the 31/32 dimension. I almost ran out of thread on the threaded studs to get to the 31/32 dimension. Changing to the oem thicker plates solved that problem.thanks for catching that Andy!
For anyone else having a similar problem, simply install an extra steel plate, sans anti rattlers, and that will move the clutch pack outward an amount equal to the thickness of that steel plate....
I know for a fact this works, and with no ill effects.....
....RooDog....
panama86
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Re: Hard shifting, clutch hub spinning with clutch disengaged in neutral

#11

Post by panama86 »

Thanks for the input.

Roo, this 3.5 pack does indeed have the steel plate with the fingers however I has this same issue with a 4 plate kevlar setup. I haven't installed the big fix long roller kit yet as the stock caged setup for this belt drive kit was sufficient with minimal play as it's all new. Maybe I'll leave that out.

Socalrider, I'll take a look at what you suggested. To be honest, the constant parts of this issue seem to be the hub and my oil thickness, the only 2 things i haven't tried to change yet. I actually have a 3 finger hub here I could also try and see if that makes a difference. I have heard people mention of drilling out the friction plates with a W size drill bit however i did try this on a previous set of plates but same problem. Actually come to think of it, I did check the plates could move smoothly when I had those drilled out frictions in place but still had the same issue.

Ozwick, I might try the straight 50 maybe i run in my motor see if I have any difference with that.

Blewcrab, I have attempted loosening off the nuts on the pressure plate until it can still hold a kick and not slip but I still have the same issue.
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Re: Hard shifting, clutch hub spinning with clutch disengaged in neutral

#12

Post by awander »

The 75W-90 Gear Oil you said you are using in the transmission, is just around the same viscosity as 10W-50 Motor Oil.
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Re: Hard shifting, clutch hub spinning with clutch disengaged in neutral

#13

Post by panama86 »

Awander, so you're saying it shouldn't really make a difference if I'm running say straight 50 in my trans Vs the 75w90 I'm running now?
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Re: Hard shifting, clutch hub spinning with clutch disengaged in neutral

#14

Post by awander »

panama86 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:57 am Awander, so you're saying it shouldn't really make a difference if I'm running say straight 50 in my trans Vs the 75w90 I'm running now?
Well, there are other properties of oils besides just viscosity.

But, I do doubt if the type of oil in the transmission is causing your shifting problems.

I ran gear oil in my '64 tranny for years. I now run motor oil in my '52 tranny.

Both shift just fine.
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Re: Hard shifting, clutch hub spinning with clutch disengaged in neutral

#15

Post by panama86 »

What makes me wonder a bit about this whole issue is that the hub is stopped when I'm gear it's only in neutral that it spins. Leads me to believe the problem actually may not be in the clutch plate area itself. It doesn't feel much like drag from plates but it's also not a grinding drag. Im using some heavy sticky bearing grease in my clutch bearings I wonder if it's too heavy to spin free.
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