Samwell auto-advance ignition module

On my Panhead, wanted to share my thoughts and troubles with all of you.

All Panhead related discussions, questions etc.
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Sarre
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Samwell auto-advance ignition module

#1

Post by Sarre »

The bike is a 1950 FL panhead. Engine was revised, compression is good, running on a S&S Super E (see projects section).

Old situation:
Was equipped with a circuit breaker, single points. Started cold or warm first or second kick.
Just had to retard it about 1/2. Was able to retard it with the engine running all the way. Ran strong and good, plugs were fine.

Read and heard that an electronic ignition should be a great improvement for the pan. Thus decided that I needed one.

The Samwell auto-advance unit for big twins consists out a module and two rotors: one for when the engine is running and one for the kickstart retarded timing. The module will let the bike run at the kickstart timing for 10 seconds and then go to full advance. It has a LED indicator for full advance "point opening" type of setting. According to the manual you have to set it just like points, even advices not to remove the timing stud/band so you are close to the original settings for easy installation and tuning.

Nothing is easy, learnt that lesson already.

This is my second attempt to install this unit, the first time I failed miserably; spent a few hours to get it running, wasn't able to get it running again and had the bike back on points & running within 20 minutes.

That's also the upside of this system; reversed engineering within 20 minutes.

Image

Image

Alright, review on installation; fair enough, it was easy peasy. Remove points/condensor from the plate, disconnect battery/ground. From the module the first wire [red] goes to the 12v side of the coil, second wire [black] goes to the opposite/negative of the coil, third wire goes to ground (bolt of the circuit braker base. Module screws on, no modifications needed (just slightly had to widen one slot on the module to get 1mm clearance between module and rotors). Rotors slide easily on the lobe of the cam. Reconnect battery/ground.

Review on tuning: First off, I'm not there yet but I'm close (I think). The manual of the module refers to the service manual of the bike, but does mention that for a BT the line on the crank should be on the right side of the window. I started out from where I left with the points, that was measured 4mm from the right side of the window. Set timing, red LED on at full advance, start the bike. Nothing happened.

I decided to hunt down the "right" moment, advancing it, all the way to the line just entering the window. Occasionally the bike would spit and bark through the carb but it wasn't running (no real kickbacks). According to the manual the top 2 screws on the rotor should be just as high as the module, so I did that, but decided to analyze the system. On the module there are two black painted areas corresponding to the size of the rotors, these black painted areas are on different sides of the module and stepped like the rotors. So one is for the upper and one is for the lower rotor; I aligned the rotors with the black painted areas. Kicking it resulted in more back fires and sputter starts with some flames out of the exhaust; more life!

Going back again, retarding the line (moving it more towards the centre of the window) and setting the timing on the circuit breaker, and there came a bit of life. Still lots of backfires in the process, till it ran OK, now I'm just off centre to the right. It ran and ran strong and no strange noises. Took a while to get there.

That is what I'm at now, timing wise. I let the bike cool down and decided to try another cold start, it wouldn't start.. Strange.. So I started changing the kickstart moment of the upper rotor, this had a small positive effect. But the next time that I was cold kicking it, it still was too much work to get it running.

I was under the assumption that I didn't need to make changes to the carb, but if you change the spark perhaps you also need to change the fuel mixture?.. And also the starting procedure. I have made the mixture a bit richer with the mixture screw (screwing it out on the S&S), just 1/4 of a turn. And it had immediate effect, less kicks to get it starting. Thus have to retune the carb for the new ignition; that wasn't in the manual :-) but makes sense.

One point of self-critique; the circuit breaker does have up and down play, but, according to multiple mechanics that I have spoken to, this should not have an influence on the ignition module.

So to be continued, and I'll let you know the end result. So far, this setup is/was not so easy (for me) to get tuned as it sounds and reads.

Anyone else on here with experience with this specific ignition module? Curious to your experience and setup!
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Re: Samwell auto-advance ignition module

#2

Post by Excalibur »

Thanks for posting. Watching with interest on progress.

Thoughts:
It's great that it will optionally drive a more powerful coil so you can have modern spark on an old bike. They've given some consideration to kick timing, various auto-advance curve options and the module auto adjusts coil charge time. It's fairly sophisticated so it will be interesting to see if they've hit the nail on the head by getting all the parameters perfectly suited to a kickstart Pan.

Did you buy it from WWAG.com or is there somewhere better? (I note they also have a manual advance version for about EU-55 less.)

Vtronic.com says:
Note: Please download the new installation instructions for this product as the one included in the kit might have errors
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Re: Samwell auto-advance ignition module

#3

Post by Bone Head »

No experience with it, but I read about it lately. Sounded pretty fool proof, so I'll ask if it's possible you're experiencing an additional problem? What else has been changed lately?
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Re: Samwell auto-advance ignition module

#4

Post by awander »

What's wrong with using points?
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Re: Samwell auto-advance ignition module

#5

Post by Scrap »

Points are ok but its bending over and kneeling and i'm too old. My 80 FLT has the stock electronic ignition, I put an electronic ignition in my 71 Bonneville to replace the dual point set up. Trouble free and no PM ever. Like most solid state stuff, if it doesn't fail early it will probably be dependable for many years. If I was 20 years younger, I'd put it in the Pan. Good luck and keep us posted.
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Re: Samwell auto-advance ignition module

#6

Post by panhead »

Did you change the coil for one suitable for electronic ignition?
Sarre
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Re: Samwell auto-advance ignition module

#7

Post by Sarre »

Hey all,
Excalibur wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 12:44 am Thanks for posting. Watching with interest on progress.

Did you buy it from WWAG.com or is there somewhere better? (I note they also have a manual advance version for about EU-55 less.)

Vtronic.com says:
Note: Please download the new installation instructions for this product as the one included in the kit might have errors
Bought it at 45flatheadservice. Yeah I downloaded and used the "new" instructions, thanks for pointing that out!
Bone Head wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 12:50 am No experience with it, but I read about it lately. Sounded pretty fool proof, so I'll ask if it's possible you're experiencing an additional problem? What else has been changed lately?
Have been cruising with a smile on the bike for the last weeks, have not noticed any starting/timing/carburator problems.

@awander I am with @Scrap, I don't have the original handlebar on so I have to retard it at the circuit breaker and have a spring installed, so that's a bit of a hassle while I'm at the traffic light; hoped to solve that with this ignition module.
panhead wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 8:14 am Did you change the coil for one suitable for electronic ignition?
According to multiple sources, including Samwell, this ignition should work with my coil, Andrews 4.8 ohm.

Started with a fresh leg today, tried to start the bike, starting routine:

2 kicks with the enricher open, enricher closed, kick it a few times. > Nothing but smoke around my ears.
2 kicks with the enricher open, enricher stays open, kick it a few times. > Nothing but smoke around my ears.

And it starts all over again. Checked the timing again, and tried the following:

Set the line on the crank on the sweet spot for points, set the circuit breaker to red LED on at full advance.
- Changing the kickstart rotor also changes the timing of the full advance; that's odd. Changing the height of the rotors did not change this. I would expect that only the lower rotor influences the full advance timing, but was unable to find the correct height/setting to achieve this.
- According to the manual there should be no spark when the red light goes on > confirmed.
- There is a spark when you rotate the circuit breaker from full retard to full advance, the point that it sparks is set with the kickstart rotor, I set this to the point that I know I had to retard it for the points to start.

Did my starting routine (as mentioned above), and even put new plugs in (gapped at 0.22), it occasionally wants to run but dies premature, other than that a lot of smoke around my ears. :evil:
I do want to point out that I have the accelerator pump off to prevent flooding the carb.

It is very well possible that there is to much play in my circuit breaker, interfering with the calculations of the module: "The software calculates when to start charging the coil before it has to fire. Every engine stroke again. This way no power is wasted and this results in a cooler coil and offloads the battery."

Going to have a another coffee and rethink my options. :roll:
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Re: Samwell auto-advance ignition module

#8

Post by RooDog »

Sarre
I don't have experience with kicking an $&$ E, but I installed a Bendix on my Panny. Most of the time it is no choke, no priming, just two squirts with the throttle/accelerator pump, hold the throttle just a little bit open,, and in a kick or two it is going. You could be flooding your motor with that carb. Just a thought.

BTW,the ignition is an AM auto advance, from eBay, points & condenser, with a Dyna Ignition Booster box....
....RooDog....
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Re: Samwell auto-advance ignition module

#9

Post by socalrider »

You may be on to something on the too much play in the circuit breaker. Both my pans 63,65 have original 65 auto advances.The 65 has the electronic EBYOND 2000 and the 63 still has points but have another EBYOND 2000 in tool box waiting to be installed. Both are 1 kickers when hot and cold. Both have linkerts. They were not always so easy to start when cold or hot until I figured out that both had too much rotational play at the circuit breaker shaft. I had too wide a gap between the spacer between the cam gear cover and the circuit breaker drive gear . The gap was like .015" . The manual I believe calls for .005-.010". I had to have a machinist make me new spacers that were .007" thicker than the originals to tighten the gap to.007" made a HUGE improvement on not only starting but idling also. The original auto advance circuit breakers have gotten a bad rap because because not only are they hard to adjust the points but the factory springs are too weak and don't pull the counterweights back in properly to bring down the idle when at a stop. I would have to use the clutch to help bring the idle down at a stop. I would release the clutch just for a moment to bring the idle down then pull it all the way in and the the idle would stay down.Had to do that every time I came to a stop.The Ebyond2000 solved the point adjustment issue and I was able to source better springs with for the counterweight issue on the 63 with points. The 65 still requires a bit of clutching to get the idle down at a stop,not so much as before I changed the springs but still needs a bit. I believe the reason the 63 does not is beacause the points are providing an additional amount of drag on the breaker shaft that the electronic ignition does not. So my next move is go into be to take a little bit of weight off the counterweights. I realize that will change my advance curve but hoping not so much that it will ping. These bikes are NEVER hot rodded. They are old bikes ridden by an old man so no abuse ever. Good luck hope you get it all sorted out.
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Re: Samwell auto-advance ignition module

#10

Post by awander »

Why would you need to retard the timing, whether manually or through the use of an auto-advance timer, when you come to a stop?
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Re: Samwell auto-advance ignition module

#11

Post by RooDog »

To get that lumpity lump, potato-potato, 600 RPM idle which is hard on the rod bearings?
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Re: Samwell auto-advance ignition module

#12

Post by Sarre »

RooDog wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 1:21 pm Sarre
I don't have experience with kicking an $&$ E, but I installed a Bendix on my Panny. Most of the time it is no choke, no priming, just two squirts with the throttle/accelerator pump, hold the throttle just a little bit open,, and in a kick or two it is going. You could be flooding your motor with that carb. Just a thought.

BTW,the ignition is an AM auto advance, from eBay, points & condenser, with a Dyna Ignition Booster box....
....RooDog....
On a side note, I wonder what provides more fuel; enrichener or accelerator pump, and for the S&S I think the accelerator pump provides more (raw) fuel than the enrichener. After reading the posts from @Cotten I decided to adjust my starting procedure so that I don't use the accelerator pump.

Besides that, I did try your start procedure but without luck..
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Re: Samwell auto-advance ignition module

#13

Post by RooDog »

The enrichener is a separate starting circuit. It is constant. The accelerator pump only gives one shot per twist of the throttle It is also adjustable for volume per squirt. $&$ advises that it be only just enough to avoid a hesitation when accelerating, and no more. It can even be turned off completely. The enrichener is usually fully applied, and the throttle left fully closed while cold staring, and then they both may be then adjusted until the engine stabilizes. On my big bike my $&$ enrichener goes from fully on to fully off within a few seconds of starting.
....RooDog....
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Re: Samwell auto-advance ignition module

#14

Post by socalrider »

I have my idle rpm set at 900 rpm so no damage to the rod bearings going on there . Retarding at a stop with auto advance must happen or the idle stays way high like 2000 rpm. Idle is set at the retard position of timing.Also starting is easier in the retard position.
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Re: Samwell auto-advance ignition module

#15

Post by 59Panman »

socalrider,


I misread your post where you set your idle on the retard not at fully advanced. I was going to say you may have a manifold leak. Disregard.
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