2nd, 3rd and 4th gear not engaging right?

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foundationapps
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2nd, 3rd and 4th gear not engaging right?

#1

Post by foundationapps »

Morning gents, in the continuing saga of the 48 rebuild into a softail frame... Per the attached pics, I've successfully added the RSES unit and replaced the main trans seal with a James seal, no cork gasket installed, wasn't needed. I had the ratchet top off, but I didn't change anything, only cleaned it out. Removed the kick starter cover and unit to replace with the RSES. I also replaced a broken shifter pawl spring, and cleaned up that area, new grease on the components. I am pretty sure I got the shifter pawls oriented correctly, but I couldn't find a clear reference on the orientation of those pawls. IT DOES SHIFT INTO 1ST GEAR GOOD.
All okay to this point.

[/Situation. Ever since reassembling the transmission, I've been able to easily click in and out of 1st gear and back to neutral, etc. However, I can't seem to engage 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear manually. I manipulate the drive sprocket but all I get is a dead movement in the shift arm, no click or clunk into gear.b]

Question: When I replaced the ratchet top, I may have not had the gears in the right location for the buttons on the forks to engage the shifter drum correctly. I have mined through the KB and cannot find a clear reference that solves the issue. Can anyone explain the situation or suggest reading for a solution please?

Pics attached of the transmission, starter and RSES so far.

Very respectfully,
Trig
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1950Panhead
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Re: 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear not engaging right?

#2

Post by 1950Panhead »

Trig,
I see a pan in the house, if you have a woman she is a good one.
There are four springs in the ratchet assembly, I attached a photo, remove the tranny lid and check you can go through the gears in both directions, also check the shift forks move the dogs in and out of the gears.
100_2659.JPG
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RUBONE
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Re: 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear not engaging right?

#3

Post by RUBONE »

All the info on the pawls, timing the ratchet assembly, timing the shift forks, etc is in the service manual. There is one in the Documentation section.
foundationapps
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Re: 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear not engaging right?

#4

Post by foundationapps »

Thanks Rub,, I found a reference to another guy in the KB that mentioned 2, 3, 4th gears. I do have an old service manual that showed the alignment notch for the shifter gear. (pics attached). What I didn't see before is that alignment is done in ANY GEAR BUT NEUTRAL. Ack. I did it in neutral I think.

On another point, am doing the mockup and rebuild using an older 3 bolt hub, new chrome springs, (maybe a bad idea, but they spec out), and a new JP spring plate. The pressure plate is a machined aluminum thick plate that is nice. The issue is that the JP spring plate is very soft. I couldn't get the plate to NOT warp as I tightened up the clutch nuts (1 turn past finger tight and the plate was warping). I decided to pull a Sifton diaphragm clutch unit off the shelf, that is working great so far.

The combination of the 3 ball / ramp setup clutch in the RSES and this diaphragm setup is pretty sweet, about half the squeeze tension as with the conventional setup for the 4-speed. Am testing the starter setup and transmission assembly tonight with a dry engine (residual oil, no fuel, no fire), belt drive in place, it's just a starter test to make sure it works right and the clutch releases and belt primary in place. I'll let you know!!!
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foundationapps
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Re: 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear not engaging right?

#5

Post by foundationapps »

Update so that others may learn. I took apart the shifter mechanism last night. After studying the book and the KB here, I figured I had this pretty much figured out. I capitalize the part names as done to indicate their title in the shop manual.

From Page 157, the photo page in the last posting, I noted that This adjustment can be made with shifter in any gear (not neutral). Removed the Dust Shield, Shifter cover screws, and Pawl Carrier Cover. I looked down at the Pawl Carrier and found the Shifter Gear was rotated CCW past where the pawl could capture the gear and shift it down. It appeared to be "over shifted" beyond the range of the pawls ability to capture the gear. Does that make sense?

The timing notch was also slightly out of alignment with the notch on the shifter gear, but I didn't really notice that until I reassembled the Pawl Carrier and found I had to rotate the Adapter Plate a couple of degrees to obtain that shifter gear alignment.

Reassembled everything after successfully shifting through the gears by hand clicking the Shifter Lever and turning the drive sprocket by hand. VERY SMOOTH shifting. I put it back together the rest of the way. While the sweet honey that allows this machine in the living room was turning the sprocket, I shifted up and down the pattern 2 times and then wasn't able to shift into 2,3, and 4 again.

Took it all apart again and had the same issue. The Shifter Gear appeared to over shift CCW where the pawls couldn't capture the gear to shift down again. Took it apart again and corrected it.

QUESTION: Can these shifters OVERSHIFT past their point of the pawls ability to capture the shifter gear? It occurred to me that the shifter linkage is part of that formula that limits over shifting. Does that make sense?

I appreciate the patients the experts here have for my long verbage.

Respectfully
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Andygears
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Re: 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear not engaging right?

#6

Post by Andygears »

It's been a while since I've had a ratchet lid apart but as I recall there are split pins that hold the plungers in correct orientation. And if they turn, they can't drop into the slot to shift. Check the groove in the plungers and the split pins for smooth operation. And if something isn't flat, when you tighten the ratchet together maybe binding a plunger? It sounds to me like one plunger don't engage when assembled.

Others may be more familiar with this.

Andygears
foundationapps
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Re: 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear not engaging right?

#7

Post by foundationapps »

Thanks Andy, took it apart and used a polishing Cratex tip on a Dremel to polish the plungers and their pathways, also the moving parts that move against each other. Re-greased everything with lithium grease and put it back together. That's a chore working upside down on the plunger retainer with a little tiny screw. I decided to take the slot screw out and pitch that one. Re-tapped the pawl carrier for an 8-40 pitch beveled cap screw that fit flush. Very smooth action after that, I'm thinking you're right, there was some binding that was happening. Shifting is very smooth and easy, no oil in the gearbox yet, so it's just slimy dry. I'm happy.
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Re: 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear not engaging right?

#8

Post by 58flh »

Also //If it happens on the bench /Another thing that can Stop you from shifting is DULL Pawls!//They must be sharp,& when assembling use ALOT of grease!!Any excess can be wiped off---Dont forget about a properly funtioning DETENTE!//I have seen bad ones from stopping a mixer to catch a particular gear---usually on the upshifts.Glad you got her timed-up & working good!--(Its looking like its coming along good!,VERY-NICE!).I showed a buddy your build & it looks like He may be going to a softail K-Tech. frame!//Any surprises???/That I may run accross would be greatly appreciated!--You can PM me---Thanx in adv.---Respectfully----Richie
foundationapps
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Re: 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear not engaging right?

#9

Post by foundationapps »

Richie,,

Almost forgot about this thread,... you were dead right on the shifting pawls. They were a bit dull. Got out some .45 trigger sharpening stones and brought them up to a keen and strong edge. Lotsa grease. That combined with good light and a better alignment eye (post eye surgery), bike is shifting better (while on the mine crate anyways), that it ever did.

Thank you sir as always, respectfully,

Trig
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