Need help identifying my Panhead engine

Information about the identification and numbering of frame, motor belly, transmission and other parts
Bigincher
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Re: Need help identifying my Panhead engine

#16

Post by Bigincher »

The timer looks like a funnel with duct tape around it. Where's the rest of it ?
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Re: Need help identifying my Panhead engine

#17

Post by Speeding Big Twin »

Peer wrote:
Speeding Big Twin wrote: Also look on top of each case near the rear engine mounting bolt holes. Are 7s stamped there? If so could you post photos please because H-D used at least two types of 7s for early Panheads if the engine was originally 74ci. When originally 61ci, H-D stamped nothing there.
Eric
Can this be the number 7?

Image
I don't think that's a 7. The lack of 7s on top of your cases suggests the engine was originally 61ci.

For 1949 Panheads, H-D used seriffed 7s in that location on some 74ci engines but other 74s that year received sans serif 7s.
Seriffed 7s on 49FL.jpg
Seriffed 7s on 49FL.jpg (94.41 KiB) Viewed 3142 times
Sans serif 7s on 49FL.jpg
Sans serif 7s on 49FL.jpg (100.87 KiB) Viewed 3142 times
As I mentioned earlier, code 2 for 1949 Pan BNs indicates 61ci or 74ci. There was a time when I thought the 2 indicated 61ci as opposed to 74ci which was said to have code 1 and this info is in Palmer’s 37–64 FE (1994). However, I later found code 2 on some 74ci Pans and code 1 on some 61ci Pans. Some of their VINs appeared authentic. Some, not all, 1950 Pans even had code 3 and again some of the VINs looked factory. Other people noticed the same thing and we found the code did not depend on engine size. In other words, Palmer’s 37-64 FE was wrong. When his 32–52 military FE surfaced in 98 Palmer said the 1949 code was an enigma and he said the code was not clear.

Palmer’s 37–64 SE (2014) says code 2 was used for all 1949 Pans: 61ci and 74ci. This seems to be true although there may be a couple of early-49 exceptions to that and I’m still looking into it.
Eric
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Re: Need help identifying my Panhead engine

#18

Post by Speeding Big Twin »

Buddhahoodvatoloco wrote:My experience has inferred that any belly number starting with "2" is a 61 cubic inch, measure the height of cylinders.
Re the 249- cases you posted above, what does the VIN look like? Photo? I assume you’re suggesting the VIN indicates 61ci but is the VIN authentic? And even if it is, you will still find some 1949 Pan cases with code 2 that have authentic 74ci VINs. I have several examples of this and some belong to members of this forum. Code 2 was used for BNs of 1949 Pans regardless of engine size. (There may be a couple of early-49 exceptions to that and I’m still looking into it.)

I read in another thread that you have Palmer’s first book as well as his two-volume set. You will find in his FE that the info re code 2 is not all correct which is why he changed it before printing the SE. (There are still some other problems though re BN info in the SE. And some problems with VIN info too.)
Eric
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Re: Need help identifying my Panhead engine

#19

Post by Peer »

flat38 wrote:I believe that timer to possibly be a Weird Engineering timer. I am the original designer of that timer and may be able to help you with info to make it work.
Interesting :)
The inside of the housing is marked with "D-71". Rest of the timing equipment in there is of course altered by one of the previous owner. So inside is what seems like an OEM mecanical advance unit, and on top, a "Dyna S" single fire ignition module.
The ignition is probably one of the things on this bike, that is infact working OK :D

Per
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Re: Need help identifying my Panhead engine

#20

Post by Peer »

Bigincher wrote:The timer looks like a funnel with duct tape around it. Where's the rest of it ?
The rest of it is removed for some cleaning and service :D
But it is modified and butchered by some previous owners. It seems like it has OEM advance unit, and the points are removed and replaced by a "Dyna S" single fire ignition module. Then there is a custom bracket over the rotor to fasten a modified original style Chrome cover.
The duct tape is there for me to set the ignition plate in the same place, so it is easier to set timing..

Per
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Re: Need help identifying my Panhead engine

#21

Post by Peer »

Speeding Big Twin wrote:
Buddhahoodvatoloco wrote:My experience has inferred that any belly number starting with "2" is a 61 cubic inch, measure the height of cylinders.
Re the 249- cases you posted above, what does the VIN look like? Photo? I assume you’re suggesting the VIN indicates 61ci but is the VIN authentic? And even if it is, you will still find some 1949 Pan cases with code 2 that have authentic 74ci VINs. I have several examples of this and some belong to members of this forum. Code 2 was used for BNs of 1949 Pans regardless of engine size. (There may be a couple of early-49 exceptions to that and I’m still looking into it.)

I read in another thread that you have Palmer’s first book as well as his two-volume set. You will find in his FE that the info re code 2 is not all correct which is why he changed it before printing the SE. (There are still some other problems though re BN info in the SE. And some problems with VIN info too.)
Eric
Here are pictures of my cases:

Image
Image
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Re: Need help identifying my Panhead engine

#22

Post by flat38 »

The number D-71 stamped inside the body means that it is definitely one of mine. It is a very early one from the first production run. Several were sold to customers in Norway and Sweden. It is designed to use any ignition that fits in a cone shovel. It turns reverse from the stock timer, so electronic ignitions used must be able to run in reverse and be timed off of the rear cylinder. Any ignition that uses advance weights needs a reverse advance unit. The timer was originally sold with a reverse advance unit. If it is missing and needed, there are several available on the aftermarket. When it was made, reverse timing gears were not available, but they are now and can be retrofitted. I will have to do some digging, but I may have a copy of the original installation instruction sheet that I could scan.
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Re: Need help identifying my Panhead engine

#23

Post by Speeding Big Twin »

Peer, thanks for the photos of your BNs. I can’t see anything wrong with them and all characters look consistent with factory stamping for 1949. Certain type of sans serif 2, certain type of sans serif, closed-top 4 and certain type of round-back 9. The 1s look okay, having a serif across the base and a short serif at the top set at about forty-five degrees. The 0 is oblong in shape as I’d expect. Often hard to describe the 5 but yours looks fine. Notice the heavy line near the top of the 5 on your R-H case. I can’t explain it but I see it a lot in BNs that appear factory-stamped.
Eric
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Re: Need help identifying my Panhead engine

#24

Post by 1950EL »

FL- 5.330" gasket surface to gasket surface
EL- 5.205" gasket surface to gasket surface
Mike
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Re: Need help identifying my Panhead engine

#25

Post by Buddhahoodvatoloco »

Peer, hombre you are probably correct all the way around. But I stand by empirical observation, bellies that start with a 2 are usually 61ci.......
Peer wrote:
Speeding Big Twin wrote:
Buddhahoodvatoloco wrote:My experience has inferred that any belly number starting with "2" is a 61 cubic inch, measure the height of cylinders.
Re the 249- cases you posted above, what does the VIN look like? Photo? I assume you’re suggesting the VIN indicates 61ci but is the VIN authentic? And even if it is, you will still find some 1949 Pan cases with code 2 that have authentic 74ci VINs. I have several examples of this and some belong to members of this forum. Code 2 was used for BNs of 1949 Pans regardless of engine size. (There may be a couple of early-49 exceptions to that and I’m still looking into it.)

I read in another thread that you have Palmer’s first book as well as his two-volume set. You will find in his FE that the info re code 2 is not all correct which is why he changed it before printing the SE. (There are still some other problems though re BN info in the SE. And some problems with VIN info too.)
Eric
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Re: Need help identifying my Panhead engine

#26

Post by Peer »

flat38 wrote:The number D-71 stamped inside the body means that it is definitely one of mine. It is a very early one from the first production run. Several were sold to customers in Norway and Sweden. It is designed to use any ignition that fits in a cone shovel. It turns reverse from the stock timer, so electronic ignitions used must be able to run in reverse and be timed off of the rear cylinder. Any ignition that uses advance weights needs a reverse advance unit. The timer was originally sold with a reverse advance unit. If it is missing and needed, there are several available on the aftermarket. When it was made, reverse timing gears were not available, but they are now and can be retrofitted. I will have to do some digging, but I may have a copy of the original installation instruction sheet that I could scan.
It would be great if You could dig up some more info on the timer.
I was not aware the timer is rotating the "wrong" way. Guess I have to check if the advance unit is the correct reverse one. More info on advance units wanted :D

Per
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Re: Need help identifying my Panhead engine

#27

Post by flat38 »

To clarify my earlier post, the timer actually turns the same direction as the stock timer, but turns the opposite of a cone motor. That is the reason for the reverse advance weights and the need to time from the back cylinder. Here is a link to a seller of reverse advance units:
http://vulcanworks.net/store/Auto-Advan ... utors.html

Several of my distributors were originally sold with M/C Power Arc ignition units which worked very well and timed from the rear cylinder. They did not use the advance mechanism.
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Re: Need help identifying my Panhead engine

#28

Post by Speeding Big Twin »

In the event anyone is still wondering about code 2 at the start of 1949 Pan BNs, it can indicate either 61ci OHV or 74ci OHV as I stated earlier. And if 1949 model Panhead production favoured the larger engine size then BNs starting with 2 will mostly be on 74s, while to a lesser extent they will be on 61s.

For Panheads, H-D used code 1 for 1948 (61ci and 74ci), changed to code 2 for 1949 (61ci and 74ci) and used code 3 for early-1950 (61ci and 74ci). Even though 61s and 74s were both available, for early-1950 H-D used code 3 instead of code 1 and/or code 2. But I think they then realised it may be a problem to proceed in this manner (1, 2, 3 etc) so for mid/later-1950 they returned to using code 1 (61ci and 74ci). This is what I see in my photo collection.

Also in said collection I do not usually find code 2 for any 1948 Pans, I do not normally see code 1 for any 1949 Pans and I do not find codes 1 or 2 for any early-1950 Pans. And I don’t see code 2 for any mid/later-50, 51 or 52 Pans even though 61s were still available during that period. Could there be exceptions, with a certain code used on occasion outside the norm? Maybe, and it’s something I continue to research, but the code did not depend on engine size.
Eric
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Re: Need help identifying my Panhead engine

#29

Post by Peer »

Thanks for all the information.

Since I measure the height of my cylinders to about 5,32 inches, that indicates that the engine is a 74.
But the lack of number "7" on the cases means that the engine is originally a 61, but converted to 74 by an earlier owner?
Is my conclusions correct?


Per
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Re: Need help identifying my Panhead engine

#30

Post by RUBONE »

That is most likely what happened Peer. But the reality is you have a '49 titled as a '63. With a Harley, only the cases make the bike. Any restamped VIN is bogus as far as originality.
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