line bore numbers

VIN Identification
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dcmc
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line bore numbers

#1

Post by dcmc »

Looking at a 1962 fl, vin# 62FL10xxx looks good, line bore numbers look good and match 162 5xxx seems like they should be 10xxx and higher. Thank You
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Re: line bore numbers

#2

Post by RUBONE »

With the odd/even rule in effect then the VIN only uses every other number, the belly uses the whole sequence, so the belly is roughly half as high as the VIN.
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Re: line bore numbers

#3

Post by dcmc »

Thank you Rubone, for the response. I don't understand the even odd thing could you please elaborate. thanks
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Re: line bore numbers

#4

Post by RUBONE »

dcmc,
The odd even rule which started in '60 was as follows:
On even year models, the serial portion of the VIN starts with even numbers. So for example, a 60FL would be 60FL 2XXX. The 1s don't exist, or any other odd first digit. But after 5 digits the first two must be even, so again 60FL 10xxx is valid but 60FL 11XXX is not.
Conversely, on odd years it is the same but with odd number first digit 61FL 1XXX or first two over 61FL 11XXX.
Why they did it is pure speculation, but they did. And the belly/line bore numbers remained as before.
Hope that makes sense.
Robbie
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Re: line bore numbers

#5

Post by dcmc »

Yes, now it makes sense. Have heard of the even odd rule, but never understood how it worked.
Guess it seems the correct numbers are more important to me than they were 30 or 40 years ago.
Thank You Rubone
Kyleutterback
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Re: line bore numbers

#6

Post by Kyleutterback »

Good afternoon-
New to the forum and would like to touch on this.

Trying to verify all the numbers on a new bike I picked up. I can't seem to confirm what number the sequential number portion of the belly numbers starts with. Did they always start at -1001? I believe this is the case. I've read that they did not follow the odd/even 1960 and up VIN rule, but can't find any info on what number they began with.

161-43xx bellies, 61FL77xx VIN with 7s on the rear motor mount. If my assumption above is correct and I'm doing the math right my bellies and VIN are within ~450 of each other. Sound legit?
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Re: line bore numbers

#7

Post by Speeding Big Twin »

Kyleutterback wrote:Trying to verify all the numbers on a new bike I picked up. I can't seem to confirm what number the sequential number portion of the belly numbers starts with. Did they always start at -1001? I believe this is the case. I've read that they did not follow the odd/even 1960 and up VIN rule, but can't find any info on what number they began with.
Welcome to the forum. I agree that BNs did not follow an E-O code. But why do you believe BNs always started at -1001? Why couldn’t BNs for at least some years start at 1000, given that VINs for some, not all, years began at 1000? For example, Panhead VINs for 1948–56 and 1963 started at 1000. (For 1961 models, VINs began at 1001.)

Regarding your VIN 77xx, it could be consistent with BNs 43xx although combinations don’t always work like that and therefore it doesn’t necessarily mean things are legit. Have you confirmed all the characters in your VIN and BNs as being consistent with 1961 factory stamping? If you’re not sure then you could post photos.

You mentioned 7s on the rear motor mount. For 1961 they would be consistent with your VIN being FL but are they the style of 7 we would normally expect for that year? Photo?
Eric
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Re: line bore numbers

#8

Post by Kyleutterback »

speeding big twin
Thanks for the feedback. I've seen the various discussions on VINs starting at -1000 vs -1001, but hadn't come across similar on BNs. I was mostly looking for confirmation that they would never start at -0001. Should have worded it better. That would of course add 1000 to my sequence and then put my belly number above my VIN. I've never seen a BN sequence below -1000, but couldn't find confirmation.

The 1s in my BNs sort of threw me, however I've seen two different fonts in other examples. Were the three digits for model and year stamped together and then the sequential numbers individually? I believe the 4s are good too - I've seen at least 3 different fonts for BN 4s. These look consistent with late 50s and early/mid 60s I've seen. Not so much with early 50s/late 60s.
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The 7s on the rear motor mount are slant back no serifs, which seems consistent with other examples I've seen on similar years. This style matches my BNs but not the VIN. I believe that is OK. It seems 7s with serifs were used earlier.
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My VIN looks good to me. Round 6 in the year. 7s are consistent with what I've seen for this year. If it's been ground down or altered I sure as hell can't tell.
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Too many damn numbers! I got burned when I was much younger and it makes me nervous now. I'm still trying to learn. I know the past two owners and 20 or so years of history on this bike which makes me feel a bit better. It came with a bank note from back in 1983 referencing the VIN, so it seems there's at least 33 years on that number.

One last question. The 5 under the case bolt - stamped by an inspector? Stamped by someone who built the motor? 5=S for stroker? :lol:
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1950Panhead
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Re: line bore numbers

#9

Post by 1950Panhead »

The 1s in my BNs sort of threw me, however I've seen two different fonts in other examples. Were the three digits for model and year stamped together and then the sequential numbers individually?
The font and format of the belly numbers changed through the years, the vin font and format also changed through the years.
Teens to 47 used year-####, ex:47-9247, starting in 48 an engine model prefix was added.
I think 63 used two styles of 6, eric will verify shortly.
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Re: line bore numbers

#10

Post by Speeding Big Twin »

Kyle, you're welcome and thanks for the photos. Sorry I’m late with a reply but I’ve been away from my PC. AFAIK, BNs for 1948–56 production Panheads began at 1000. I’m not sure what happened for 1957–65 Pan BNs but I’m thinking either 1000 or 1001.

VINs for 1957–59 began at 1001 instead of 1000 which had been the norm for 1948–56 VINs. But did BNs for 57–59 begin at 1001? I don’t know. On one hand it seems likely because that would be consistent with the change to VIN start numbers but I can’t be certain. And what about 1960–65 Pans, 1966–69 Shovels and other models? As you know, the E-O code was used for 60–69 but that didn’t bring about full consistency with VIN start numbers for even years or odd years: 60, 64, 66 and 68 began at 2000 but 62 started at 2001. VINs for 61 and 65 began at 1001 but 63, 67 and 69 started at 1000. Due to inconsistency in 60–69 VIN start numbers, I can’t say for sure what start numbers were used for BNs over that period but I imagine it was either 1000 or 1001.

At times you will find what may appear at first to be part of a BN. For example, a while ago a pair of Knuckle cases had 43 stamped in the usual BN position but they were cast in Dec 47 and were probably replacements. The 43 on each case was just to identify them as a matching pair and it wasn’t really a BN.

Whether or not production BNs ever started at -0001 is an interesting question. Herb Wagner tells us BNs first appeared for 1909 models but I’m not sure what start numbers were used. Some early BNs also included a letter which I THINK indicated the year but I haven’t researched that fully. Anyway, for production Flatheads, Knuckles, Pans, Shovels etc I doubt BNs ever started below 1000.

I can’t see anything wrong with your BN. The first 1 has no serif at the base but a short serif at top left at about forty-five degrees and the second 1 is probably the same. Sometimes the stamps are lightly struck so the full impression isn’t there and sometimes the characters are worn down over time or whatever. Round-back 6 is normal for BNs although there was more than one style used over the years. I don’t see a dash or hyphen between the second 1 and the 4 but that doesn't present a problem.
The 4 has an open back and is sans serif. Normal in the sequence portion from about 1953 and into the 70s. During the 1974 model year it seems they changed to a taller version although so far I only see it in the 1974 year portion, not yet in the sequence portion. But it still had an open back. You’ll also find an open-back 4 (short version) in the decade position for 1941–46. H-D used at least seven different 4s in one position or another for 1925-74 BNs. Flat-top 3 looks fine. Lightly done in the upper half so I can’t tell if the stamp had a vertical serif at top left but I would think not. Sequence 1 looks okay, having short horizontal serif at the base and short top serif at about forty-five degrees. Sequence 7 looks normal.

There are at least three theories about BN stamping prior to 1975 models. Some say the first portion (two or three digits) was applied at one time and the sequence portion was stamped later. Some say the entire BN was done at one time. If they were 1944 BNs, some would say there were three different people/areas involved, with the 4s in the year portion being applied at two different times and then the sequence portion stamped later by a third person. I think however that the theory about 1944 BNs is wrong at least as far as the year portion is concerned.
More to follow.
Eric
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Re: line bore numbers

#11

Post by Speeding Big Twin »

The 7s on your rear motor mount are consistent with most, but not all, Panhead years: fully curved back and sans serif. Similar style to your BN 7 but not your VIN 7s so yes that is indeed okay. You’re right in that 7s with serifs were used earlier and you’ll find them on 1941–47 74ci Knuckles and 1948 74ci Pans. For 1949–50 74ci Pans I’ve seen them seriffed and sans serif but at some point during the 1950 model year the sans serif 7 seems to have taken over completely.

I can’t see anything wrong with your VIN boss and all the visible characters appear consistent with factory stamping for a 61 Pan with VIN 778+. Round-back 6 looks okay and is what I’d expect, given the VIN is that high. Similar thing applies to the 1: it’s a certain version I’d expect in a 61 VIN that high. If it was a very early 61 then we’d expect a straight-back 6 accompanied by a more-pronounced version of the 1.
If your last sequence character is 1 then I’d expect it to be a more-pronounced version. If your last character is 6 then I’d expect a straight back. The 7s and 8 look okay for 1961. (The 7 changed to sans serif during the 66 model year.)
F and L look normal for 1961: capitals and sans serif. Notice the lower stroke of the F is not much shorter than the upper stroke and this is normal for 1961 and some other Panhead years. It’s even shorter still for 1948–mid-52 Pans.

The 5 under the case bolt may have been stamped by an inspector as you suggested. That is my best guess. I've seen 5 in that position on several Pan cases of one year or another. Some have 2, 6 or 9. On one case there was even a character stamped horizontally and in that instance I wasn’t sure if it was meant to be 6 or 9. I do not know for sure what any of them mean.
Eric
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Re: line bore numbers

#12

Post by Kyleutterback »

Thanks! This is great info. I really appreciate it.
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