New STD head problem

[Excalibur]

As promised I'm reporting my experience with the STD heads replacement for my '61 FLH. The tale is somewhat of a rollercoaster but if it entertains or helps then it's worth the time to tell. The story starts about 3 months ago when I discover my Pans' heads were cracked and valve seats worn. I elected to get new STD heads so I shop around for best value. Eventually I settle on heads from J&P who had a fabulous discount offer. The Importance of getting a good price was a priority because I get charged 15% tax on the shipping included cost!!
I pay via Visa and then I note I was charged $54 of my dollars for foreign exchange fee. Grin and bear it I thought. But it got worse.. Immediately I placed the order J&P declare all but one STD head listing as "unavailable". Yikes! Would I get my heads I wondered?? Puzzled and confused I waited then an email said I should choose an alternative product. A few days later the items were suddenly marked as shipped!!
I was able to track the heads online and the next thing I know, Customs were asking for 3 or 400 hundred bucks in tax and fees. I pay and the heads were released to couriers who promptly lost the items for a week. At this stage the shipment owed me around 2.5K NZ dollars.
OK so the heads finally showed up. What a relief.
I measure the guide bores and order Black Diamond valves and guides. Also gaskets. No tax on this lot as the shipment was less than economic amount of tax to be collected. Yes, Customs don't collect if they can't make $60 out of you.
Next I adjust the guide fit and install them to 1.5 - 2.5 thou interference as per Kibblewhite instructions. I then get the guides reamed to Kibblewhite specs and seats cut for another $118.
Now the repair is owing me closer to 3K NZD.
Finally I get it all back together. I got help to get the bike off the work table and pushed it outside. I found a temporary plastic tank for fuel from an old lawnmower. Two kicks with full choke and two more with ignition on and it fired up. It sounded good. Very responsive. I adjusted the idle mixture toward leaner and was running great. Idling strong. Such a big contrast to the contrary running behavior 3 months ago. It was then I noticed a large pool of oil on the ground. It was leaking at steady trickle. Eventually I could see it was coming from between 3rd and 4th fin of the front head (from top). The oil is obviously coming out at mains pressure. It would fill the gap between fins before running down toward the exhaust pipe.

DSCF4941_zps7fmnujxr.jpg

Pic with pushrod towers removed. Between 3rd and 4th fins from top.

pinh_zpso2w2d93l.jpg

I think it's coming from the black dot as marked. I guessing it's a pin hole.


The plan is to remove the head and pressure test with 10-15psi air and soapy water. Once I verify the exact location I can work out a fix.
One thought was to sleeve the offending oil drilling, Loctite said sleeve in place. The drilling doesn't need to be as big as it is, I mean look how much oil comes out a pin prick of a hole!
The other thought was to drill, tap and plug the pin hole externally. Perhaps a plug made of alum or brass to match the expansion rate of the head. Threaded plug or simple interference fit.

It's too far to send the head back. It would be expensive for shipping, then there's the paperwork so I don't get charge tax a 2nd time. And there's the guides and valve seat work already done. I'm going to slide the head off tomorrow, then I'll understand more on how to proceed.

Has anyone had, seen or heard of this before? Any initial ideas on how to fix? Thanks!

[talldrifter]

Bummer!

I put STD heads on back around 2000, no problems. I realize that you bought from J&P, however I would suggest shooting an email with pictures and questions straight to STD, they may give you the best answer.

Warren

[old.wrench]

excaliber,

Jeez! Some days it rains, other days it just pours down by the bucketful !

I think your idea of sleeving the oil passage will give the best result. Drill out the passage and sleeve with some thin-walled brass tubing?
I'd be concerned that if the leaking hole was plugged externally, another one might show up.

This is kind of surprising to me; I've worked with a couple sets of the STD replacement pan heads and found them to be excellent quality - very solid castings. Did you receive any documentation from JP to indicate that they are in fact STD brand? The only reason I ask, is because of the apparent confusion by JP in your original order.
One thing I know for sure, is that STD is very good about making sure that their customers get what they pay for. A few years ago I had an issue with a set of STD heads that I bought from an online retailer. It turned out that the online retailer had purchased bare heads from STD (which were good), and then did their own valve job etc. on them (which was absolutely terrible). STD was willing to step in and they (STD), ended up sending me a new set of heads for less money .

I would think that a few calls or emails to JP and STD should yield some help or reimbursement for your trouble. You have photo documentation of the problem. Good Luck.

Geo.

[Excalibur]

Thanks for the thoughts.

Yes, either way I'll be contacting STD at some point. Reality is that even if I do fix this now, STD should know so they can at least improve their product and prevent future customers having a bad day.

The brass sleeve idea is a good one and it's one that was brought up here as we bounced ideas around. Brass has similar expansion to alum was indeed the argument.

I believe the heads are STD's. They came with STD instruction and STD packaging. I certainly paid for STD...!

OK, so I plucked the head off this morning but just before I did I decided to retest the oil galleries. I'll share this method because it might help others. I removed the oil switch and plumbed 5/16" air line from an air pressure regulator. I slowly introduced pressure and heard various gurgling sounds... but then I saw the oil bubbles from the pin hole. Yes there is no doubt, it's coming from exactly where we thought.
Once the head was off, I prodded and poked and measured. I was able to verify that the drilling from the head gasket face goes up and tees into the drilling from the exhaust rocker drilling. The bottom end of the exhaust drilling meets with the intake drilling. It forms kind of a dog leg pattern rather than the expected "Y" configuration.
The leak is at a point that comes dangerously close to the bottom of the fins and in my case perhaps a tiny porous hole. Not sure as it's too far down in there to see clearly. I was able to push a .012" fuse wire through.

Any way I got my thinking cap on. The drilling measures nominal 3/16". My thought is to ream using 3/16" HSS. Use brass or alum tube at +.0005" interference. I happen to have some alum rod which measures perfect so I test drilled a small block of alum and reamed 3/16". It was the perfect drive fit so I drilled the rod through .080" and retested. Looks good. My thought is to make the sleeve say 1" - 1.25" long and drift it down so the pinhole is at the half way mark meaning there'd be half inch+ either side of the pinhole for sealing purposes.

The question of using Loctite as insurance against leakage came up. Still pondering over this. I checked the stocks on hand. 243, 609 and 567 are here now.

I need to get this right first time so should anyone have any thoughts, please , most appreciated. Thanks.

[Bigincher]

Jay-Pee strikes again. This story really pisses me off, and I'm not even the customer.
Real bummer for you, sorry to hear it.

[talldrifter]

Since this is going to be a one shot deal with no room for error, why not contact STD first? If they designed and made it they may also have some insight to help make it right. Deal yourself a few more cards and you may have a better chance at a winning hand. You have almost $3,000 into this, take your time and get all the answers first.

Warren

[Casaba]

Agree with the above, really curious if STD will make right, also now wondering if somehow you got sold a set of blems or even some returns that may or may not be true std heads. Surely they have casting marks to indentify them over other repops from China?

[58flh]

EX---You pressure tested the oil feed.The pinhole runs directly to oil-feed.I think the brass tube is a good fix using -(grey-Hi-Temp Loc-tite)---On the outer between the fins I would find a Tig-man & seal & sand to finish.Also I onderstand all the bullshit you have to go thru just to send -then wait & get a head from STD!.IF the call to STD goes good & they will send you another head --(Then that would be the way to go!/As long as you have transportation to get around & All the Duties PAID IN FULL!.Those were some EXPENSIVE HEADS!.-& I feel your pain!.In the end its all up to STD & you to strike a deal.As far as the fix you came-up with ,I think its grand & just a little drilling on the pinhole -(not to deep Just to have some Flow & good seal when Tiged-up)-It will be fine!.I have seen similar oil leaks from cracked cases that the owner v-eed out with a dremel & used JB-WELD then sanded it so you couldnt tell,& It HELD for a few yrs. until It was time for an overhaul -Then it was fixed correctly.I would personally want a REPLACEMENT HEAD from STD!---But I am in the states & you have alot of crap/redtape to go thru!-----All the best--Richie

[1962FLH]

Man that sucks! Porosity in castings is not nearly as common as it used to be. I would weld it in place on the bike; 30 minutes later you’re on the road again. Not even worry about dressing the weld you will not see it behind the pushrod tube. I think that STD would agree it is a manufacture defect and they should make good on it.

[old.wrench]

STD has a one year warranty on their heads which covers any manufacturing defect.

As far as welding that hole from the outside goes, FWIW, a few thoughts -

TIG welding: it's in a very tight place down in the valley between the fins, with a regular tig torch you can't reach it.
Stick weld: very do-able with a rod like Certanium 608 (3/32" would be great for that application), quick and easy.
Braze: with the low-temp beer can rod, should work O.K. if squeaky clean and carefully done.

Geo.

[Excalibur]

Excellent thoughts and ideas, thanks team!

Yes, quite the roller coaster of a ride!! I must have experienced all possible emotions from elation to despair with this series of events. Re this latest twist of fate, I'm not angry and I'm not looking to blame anyone. I think I'll just fix it in the best, practical way possible.

I emailed STD with pictures and description. Have yet hear back.

I've gone off the idea of interference sleeving with alum tube. I re-conducted the test fit in a scrap block of alum and the tube crumpled before it was fully home.

This morning I picked a length of brass tubing from the local model shop. Just a fiver. It's a very light push fit in the hole by hand. For this idea to work it'll need a good retaining compound that's also a sealer and have reasonable heat resistance. I'd clean the area with Brakleen, acetone or similar.

Thanks for the tip of Loctite grey hi-temp. Studying this option I believe it to be Loctite 5699 with a good heat resistance. I hadn't thought of this product for this type of job. Then someone commented: would it fill the joint to the greatest degree possible or would much of it get wiped off as the tube was inserted? The other thought is it doesn't appear to be anaerobic so would there be full cure along total 3 inches of sleeve/tube?

Studying Loctite's website, Loctite 648 or 638 look like good candidates. Service temperature to 356°F. Gap size .006" - .010" respectively. Designed for the bonding of cylindrical fitting parts.

The welding ideas sound interesting. Certanium 608 sounds good. I've not seen or used it.
I have got some of the beer can rod however there is a STD warning not to overheat the head due to hardness of the alum. It would be best if heat could be localized to the affected area but that could be a big ask.

OK, that's my thoughts as of now. I'm taking my time here to properly think this through..
Anyway when I heard the engine run, man I was high! Music to my ears.

Thanks to all who respond
Will post with updates as things proceed.

[Excalibur]

Now the sixth day and I hadn't heard back from the makers so I decide to move forward with the proposed repair. I bought Loctite 620 which is high temperature retainer. I had to buy the big bottle because it only comes in that size. I picked up acetone for cleaning/degreasing the parts before assembly. I allowed overnight cure. It tested to 20psi. Assembly went well. No leaks from the pinhole.
I made a 30 second video clip (below) which includes engine running. Thanks.
https://vimeo.com/146993696

[foundationapps]

EX---You pressure tested the oil feed.The pinhole runs directly to oil-feed.I think the brass tube is a good fix using -(grey-Hi-Temp Loc-tite)---On the outer between the fins I would find a Tig-man & seal & sand to finish.Also I onderstand all the bullshit you have to go thru just to send -then wait & get a head from STD!.IF the call to STD goes good & they will send you another head --(Then that would be the way to go!/As long as you have transportation to get around & All the Duties PAID IN FULL!.Those were some EXPENSIVE HEADS!.-& I feel your pain!.In the end its all up to STD & you to strike a deal.As far as the fix you came-up with ,I think its grand & just a little drilling on the pinhole -(not to deep Just to have some Flow & good seal when Tiged-up)-It will be fine!.I have seen similar oil leaks from cracked cases that the owner v-eed out with a dremel & used JB-WELD then sanded it so you couldnt tell,& It HELD for a few yrs. until It was time for an overhaul -Then it was fixed correctly.I would personally want a REPLACEMENT HEAD from STD!---But I am in the states & you have alot of crap/redtape to go thru!-----All the best--Richie

I have had some experience in sealing pinhole type leaks in various mechanical environments. One of the most severe tests that I've seen is when a spark plug blow the threads out of an aluminum head on a Ford Expedition... sorry for bringing a 4 wheeled vehicle in this the discussion.... with that said.

A number of mechanics have successfully remounted the ejected spark plug into the spark plug hole by one of three ways. Keep in mind all these techniques are done to keep from buying a new head, so labor time and cost was not a factor.

1. Clean up the blown out threads a little and JB weld (long term cure, not the quick stuff) the spark plug back in. Using a new plug because it may never get changed again. (VARIATION: Coat the spark plug threads with a release agent so the plug can be backed out once the JB cures (no less than 48 hours cure at minimum temp of 689 degrees.

2. Remove the head, drill and tap the spark hole to a reasonable step up size, JB Weld in a threaded insert a steel insert that allows use of the original spark plug size. Bond all into place with JB and let cure at 68 degrees for 48 hours. Screw in the spark plug, metal to metal, no lock tite etc.

Suggestion for dealing with this pinhole. Drill a larger hole (about 1/8 should do it, and use a fine thread to tap in a carbon steel threaded rod. Make sure the internal end of the rod isn't too deep as to not interfere with engine processes if there is that potential. Seal in this piece of (drill rod works good, tough to thread though) with, YES Bond it all in place with the ubiquitous JB weld at warm temps. Haven't seen any of these type repairs fail, including in high pressure military aviation environments.

[58flh]

Foundationapps---I have fixed many sparkplug holes in VARIOUS types of motors!---(JMO)--I would never use JB-WELD -its a one time olny!.All fixes from alum.heads to castiron heads Always a Helicoil!.If head is in motor -As your Ford Exp.-I pack the cyl. with CLOTHESLINE just with a little wax for cutting tools rubbed on it.Bring piston up/so you need not 50ft of rope & clean threads real good /You dont have to -But I always checked if a chase would restore some.Usually if there popped on thier own You Tap for heli-coil!--(obviously on iron heads I would use cutting fluid/very little just enuff to wash down the flutes )-Then CLEAN REAL GOOD with Alcohol & a toothbrush.Put LOC-TITE on Heli-coil & thread in then SET with a 15oz. ballpeen.1-hit strike is all it takes.Pull the rope out /you will see all the shavings adhered to the waxy clothsline.Then use a compressor blow it out for x-tra measure & put the plug in = GOOD to GO!.Also you can change out plugs if needed!-(I forgot but its standard practice anyway)-Use Anti-Sieze on the plugs threads).And you have a nice fix that lasts until you sell it or run into the ground.----Respectfully----Richie

[talldrifter]

Excalibur,

My experience with STD was 15 years ago and they seemed to be more responsive then. Glad you got it solved, fine looking ride.

Warren