Another 48 on ebay.

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Hog54
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Another 48 on ebay.

#1

Post by Hog54 »

I cant see the vin real good,but if its good this bike is number 11 off the line.And no reserve. :roll:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1948-FL- ... 35bccdbba1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Another 48 on ebay.

#2

Post by RUBONE »

I cant see the vin real good,but if its good this bike is number 11 off the line
Where do you get that, he states right in the text that it is a re-stamped Timken bearing case. So it isn't the 11th of anything!!
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Re: Another 48 on ebay.

#3

Post by Hog54 »

Well if he spoke english better maybe I would read that.And if its a replacement case you still need the old numbers to stamp them on.
58flh
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Re: Another 48 on ebay.

#4

Post by 58flh »

I cant tell but it looks like a 40 to47 tranny but I might be wrong?--What do you think guys?--Richie
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Re: Another 48 on ebay.

#5

Post by Cotten »

Folks,

If I understand Chris Haynes correctly,
even if the VIN were authentic, it would have been the twelfth production.

....Cotten
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Re: Another 48 on ebay.

#6

Post by RUBONE »

If I understand Chris Haynes correctly,
even if the VIN were authentic, it would have been the twelfth production.
Wrong direction Cotten. More like 10th.
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Re: Another 48 on ebay.

#7

Post by Cotten »

RUBONE wrote:
If I understand Chris Haynes correctly,
even if the VIN were authentic, it would have been the twelfth production.
Wrong direction Cotten. More like 10th.
Robbie!

It is a shame Mr. Haynes doesn come around much,
but I remember my dismay that my '49 1009 was the tenth.

The presumed prototype was 1000 during that period, thus 1001 was the second machine produced, etc.

I believe it was discussed upon the AMCA forum, which the PC I am on today cannot access for a link.

....Cotten
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Re: Another 48 on ebay.

#8

Post by RUBONE »

Very true Cotten. But I suppose that Eric has an even more extensive data base than Chris does so we'll know more after he chimes in.
But no matter what the number is, as I said with a replacement left case it is not a real example of anything!
Robbie
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Re: Another 48 on ebay.

#9

Post by Cotten »

RUBONE wrote:..But no matter what the number is, as I said with a replacement left case it is not a real example of anything!
Robbie
C'mon Robbie!

I'm trying to hijack a thread here!
(What other purpose could ebay posts serve?)

....Cotten
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Re: Another 48 on ebay.

#10

Post by Speeding Big Twin »

For 1948 model Panheads, Palmer says the FL prototype has EX-54-74 on the number boss. However, I cannot confirm that ID. One problem is that some of Palmer’s other info regarding model ID is incorrect so I am suspicious of things where I have no confirmation. Anyway, regardless of what that 48 proto had on its number boss, the first usual type of serial number (SN) for a 48 Pan would have been number 1000.

How do I know numbers started at 1000? In the winter 2009 issue of The Antique Motorcycle (TAM) there was an article by Herb Wagner and he talked about Harley model layout sheets. Herb also mentioned layout sheets in a thread on the FP forum in June 2007 although there are some minor differences between his FP posts and what he said in TAM. Anyway, every year from around 1917 a model layout sheet was used and it contained info such as what number the machines started with. The start number was 1000 and Wagner also found it in the handbook Q&A by your Uncle Frank (Revised Army Edition 1945) on page 177: ‘All Harley-Davidson motor numbers start off a new season with 1000.’

Layout sheets for 1931 and 33, as well as start numbers for certain other years and certain engine families, are included in my copy of the 1930-49 Models Operation Maintenance and Specs book (H-D #99407-93). Start numbers in that book are given as 1000.

Start number 1000 was used for most Harleys from around 1917 through 1956. But for 1957–59 it was changed to 1001 for reasons unknown. For 1960–69 the even-odd code was used so during that period Big Twins for even years began at either 2000 or 2001 and BTs for odd years began at either 1000 or 1001.

Getting back to 1948 models, was the 48 Pan with number 1000 originally a general production model? Or could it have originally even been another prototype? I do not know. And IF there was a 48 proto Pan with SN 1000 how would we know if it remained a prototype or if it was later sold to the public as a production bike? Or? Again I do not know but it matters little because SN 1000 had indeed been assigned.

Palmer’s captions accompanying the photos of the 1949 prototype Pan do not mention the SN and he included no pictures of the left side of the bike. But I have to wonder if the machine had a 1948 SN because The Big Book of Harley-Davidson by Thomas C Bolfert has a photo of what may be the same bike used in Palmer’s book and the engine appears to be stamped as a 48EL with five sequence characters. However, I cannot confirm it is the same bike.

The 1950, 51 and 54 prototype Pans in Palmer’s book do not have SN 1000 and the latter two do not even have an engine from their own model year. The 50 and 51 protos both used the same 1950-stamped engine with number 1001 and I have a factory photo of it courtesy of Chris Haynes’ collection. The 54 proto Pan had a 1952-stamped engine and once again my factory photo of the SN is courtesy of Chris’ collection. It is possible the 53 proto also used that same 52 engine, given Palmer’s partial description of its SN (page 602), but I have no photo to confirm what he said.

I have no photos of Panheads with SN 1000 but I believe they were made because of what Wagner stated regarding that start number. Also, I was discussing certain things with him on CAI last year and 1949 model Pans were mentioned. Herb checked the model layout sheet and told us the serial numbers for 1949 Pans began at 1000.

Factory photos I do have with number 1000 consist of a 1935 Flathead and a 1940 TA. And there is a photo showing SN 1000 on a 1946 Flathead in the article Wagner did for TAM.
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Re: Another 48 on ebay.

#11

Post by 1950Panhead »

One problem is that some of Palmer’s other info regarding model ID is incorrect so I am suspicious of things where I have no confirmation.
I have no photos of Panheads with SN 1000 but I believe they were made because of what Wagner stated regarding that start number.
If Palmer says something you need proof.
If Wagner says something you take it by faith.
Gosh, it's been sixty years, you would think they would have surfaced by now.
Jerry
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Re: Another 48 on ebay.

#12

Post by Speeding Big Twin »

Jerry, I still recommend people buy Palmer’s 37–64 book but they need to know it contains hundreds of errors. According to Chris, after the first edition was printed Palmer submitted to the publisher 600 pages for correcting. Apparently only 200 were fixed so that leaves at least 400 mistakes in my later copy. I am aware of some of those errors but I do not know where others are so when I read a certain something then how do I know it isn’t one of the mistakes I am unaware of? And due in part to my own research I believe the amount of errors is in fact higher than the figures given by Chris.

In my previous post I said that last year Wagner checked the 1949 layout sheet and told us on CAI that SNs for 49 Pans began at 1000. So that is not taking the man on faith; it is believing what he says is on that 1949 Harley layout sheet. I know the 1931 and 33 layout sheets also give that same start number because they are in my copy of the 1930–49 specs book. But it seems you choose not to believe any of the layout sheets and you said as much in the Legend verification thread last September when you and I discussed SN 1000 here on H-G. Back then part of what you stated was as follows: ‘The layout sheet says... Without the bikes there is no proof and without proof I don't believe it.’

Now it seems you are voicing a similar opinion that just because no Panheads with SN 1000 have surfaced that they were never made. As with last year, you are basing your opinion on the lack of SN 1000 bikes we know of today. But you must have forgotten that in September I applied your type of thinking to pre-1957 examples I had of SNs 1001-1010. And you also must have forgotten that the results clearly demonstrated the flaw in your opinion re SN 1000.

You said in September you tend to believe Palmer (generally speaking) even though you know there are errors. His 37–64 book mentions at least three 1000 SNs although they are not Panheads: one of the bikes on page 522 is said to be 37EL1000 (the book says 1936 proto but the oil tank colour indicates 37); the Flathead on page 554 is said to be 41ULH1000; and the bike on page 556 is said to be 41WLD1000. Palmer’s 32–52 military book mentions at least four 1000 SNs although again none are Panheads: 40TA1000; 41TA1000; 42XA1000; and 50WLA1000. I have a factory photo of 40TA1000 but I cannot confirm the other six SNs. IF the other six SNs are correct then your opinion regarding the lack of Harleys made with SN 1000 takes a few more steps backward. Do you believe those other six machines had SN 1000? 8)
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Re: Another 48 on ebay.

#13

Post by Speeding Big Twin »

58flh wrote:I cant tell but it looks like a 40 to47 tranny but I might be wrong?--What do you think guys?--Richie
Richie, it looks like there is a vent screw in the trans case and that could indicate a 1940–55 model case. However, anybody could have installed said screw. And is there even a screw boss on that case? I cannot tell.

The shifter lever on the trans lid appears to point down not up. The change from pointing up to pointing down was introduced for 1947 models but again that doesn’t really mean much because anything could have happened to that bike over the years.
Eric
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