Harley engine balancing, reverse engineering, and balancing

Featured articles
Locked
saddlebagrail
Member
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:16 am
Bikes: FLH 67
FX77
FL 66
FLHTC98
Location: N-B
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 37 times
Contact:

Re: Harley engine balancing, reverse engineering, and balanc

#46

Post by saddlebagrail »

[quote="Cotten"]

So I suspect your means of "hanging" the rods.

Did you keep it simple?
RODHANG.jpg
quote]

Cotten


This is what I use now,I did several device and come up with this one I am using now , you are going to tell me that I don't have the device to weight my rods accuratly,or I cannot weight both rod end...you know what I am a machinist instructor and like to show how thing are done correctly with the best possible set-up,I learn new things everyday and I am open to new idea,I also like to show the readers how I do my things,and i am not reluctant to pass my knowledge and hopefully some will learn from it,hard to tell if your set up is better than mine,but I did tried that method also...we would all appreciate more from you than arguying with words here and there,as you seem to know much more than many here,Ray


Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
RUBONE
Moderator
Senior Member
Posts: 8376
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:09 am
Bikes: Multiple H-D, Ducati, BMW, Triumph, BSA,...
Has thanked: 478 times
Been thanked: 2933 times

Re: Harley engine balancing, reverse engineering, and balanc

#47

Post by RUBONE »

Nice set-up Ray.
A couple of comments,
All V-Twins, especially narrow angle like H-D and Indian will shake. It is inherent in the design.
Balancing helps control that shake, it does not eliminate it.
Varying factors move the shake up or down the rpm scale. Different ratios work better on different engines due to many factors, but primarily the rpm at which it is used most. Low rpm sloggers tend to like the lower factors as H-D originally used. Higher performance engines that operate at higher rpms like a higher factor. The factor just moves the shake to a place where it is less offensive.
saddlebagrail
Member
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:16 am
Bikes: FLH 67
FX77
FL 66
FLHTC98
Location: N-B
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 37 times
Contact:

Re: Harley engine balancing, reverse engineering, and balanc

#48

Post by saddlebagrail »

RUBONE wrote:Nice set-up Ray.
A couple of comments,
All V-Twins, especially narrow angle like H-D and Indian will shake. It is inherent in the design.
Balancing helps control that shake, it does not eliminate it.
Varying factors move the shake up or down the rpm scale. Different ratios work better on different engines due to many factors, but primarily the rpm at which it is used most. Low rpm sloggers tend to like the lower factors as H-D originally used. Higher performance engines that operate at higher rpms like a higher factor. The factor just moves the shake to a place where it is less offensive.
Hi Robbie

«Compromise» is the appropriate words when talking about harley balancing,you cannot have it smooth in all rpm range ,60% is found nowadays to be the better for a Big twins for a 55 to 75 miles and hours rides,some prefer different factor,like 58% when you want to move higher in RPM range for faster speed,different frame design will also change the factor like the rubber mount that use 52%,....as long as front and rear reciprocating weight is the same :D ,that way both forces are cancel when piston is moving in different direction on the up and down movement via the 45 degrees design,...at 90 degrees like a V-8 engine,both primary force are cancel which only leave a secondary and less signifiant force active at double the speed,Ray

Balancing a Harley engine is a must..... and everyone should do that with their engine ,if you want to ride your old machine and enjoy it,then give it a good balancing job......
Cotten
Senior Member
Posts: 6937
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2002 2:30 am
Bikes: -
Location: Central Illinois
Has thanked: 112 times
Been thanked: 310 times

Re: Harley engine balancing, reverse engineering, and balanc

#49

Post by Cotten »

You did it again Ray.

Too many bytes for my dial-up and old OS.
I have to hit "stop" or it shuts off my browser.

So I can't see your bells and whistles.

....Cotten
PS: Mr. Big!
After Buzz K burned me three times, I wouldn't give him a buffalo chip.
saddlebagrail
Member
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:16 am
Bikes: FLH 67
FX77
FL 66
FLHTC98
Location: N-B
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 37 times
Contact:

Re: Harley engine balancing, reverse engineering, and balanc

#50

Post by saddlebagrail »

Cotten wrote:You did it again Ray.

Too many bytes for my dial-up and old OS.
I have to hit "stop" or it shuts off my browser.

So I can't see your bells and whistles.

....Cotten
PS: Mr. Big!
After Buzz K burned me three times, I wouldn't give him a buffalo chip.

Cotten

That is time to upgrade your dial up connection to the high speed internet,if you want to see what I post....cause everybody already saw what I have post except you,Ray

PS
There should be a reason why Buzz burned you three times off Caimag
I am on several forums and never had a problem like that, :wink:
Cotten
Senior Member
Posts: 6937
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2002 2:30 am
Bikes: -
Location: Central Illinois
Has thanked: 112 times
Been thanked: 310 times

Re: Harley engine balancing, reverse engineering, and balanc

#51

Post by Cotten »

To begin with, Ray,...

Buzzed K. burned me the first time before he even started caimag.
It is my own fault for trusting him the second time, and his third offense was pure malice.

And easy for you to say "update".
It takes resources, and I spend all of mine on foolish things like insurance and health care.

But you get your wish, as my dial-up ISP just notified me that they are folding. I may be soon absent for a while.
(Hooray say the wankers!)

Curious how folks so interested in obsolete machinery jump quickly to chide anyone who tries to push them to their limits.

At any rate, if you don't find that female rod tops are not heavier than their male mates, you really aught to give your methods another look.

....Cotten
saddlebagrail
Member
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:16 am
Bikes: FLH 67
FX77
FL 66
FLHTC98
Location: N-B
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 37 times
Contact:

Re: Harley engine balancing, reverse engineering, and balanc

#52

Post by saddlebagrail »

Cotten wrote:
At any rate, if you don't find that female rod tops are not heavier than their male mates, you really aught to give your methods another look.

....Cotten

When I weight rods,I take the complete female and male rods weight, than I weight the rotating and reciprocating weight of each rods several times to make sure I achieve the same results to total weight of the rod itself,...so ,total weight of both rods ,and then rotating weight and reciprocating weight,so that both my rotating and reciprocating end up to within 3 grams (maximum of the total weight of each rods,I would say it is very common to have it lower than that in the 1 grams difference),as you casn see in my pics I use a Dial o grams not a regular triple beam as in Cotten pics....when within 3 grams at the most of total weight ,I add or subtract 2 grams to the rotating and add or subtract 1 grams to the reciprocating to achieve my final goal.

My rod weighting method is as good as your method,I have tested more than one or 2 methods myself,believe me and I am sure all here that knows how to balance and engine would agree, and the fact is that a male reciprocating rod is found heavier sometimes does mean that balancing both front and rear reciprocating weight really make a difference in balancing at the end.

You strongly believe that if the rear female rod is a lot heavier that the front male rod, it means that the top reciprocating weight of the female rod is a lot heavier by default to the male top reciprocating weight ,which is totally false.

So let see your balancing sheets, so we can all see how you do your things,are you kinda shy or what ? Why are you just talking and not showing what you are able to do,I am not afraid to learn new things along the way, maybe it is time to stop arguying with me or my method,and let see what you could show us,instead of only talking against my proven method,Ray
Cotten
Senior Member
Posts: 6937
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2002 2:30 am
Bikes: -
Location: Central Illinois
Has thanked: 112 times
Been thanked: 310 times

Re: Harley engine balancing, reverse engineering, and balanc

#53

Post by Cotten »

saddlebagrail wrote:...You strongly believe that if the rear female rod is a lot heavier that the front male rod, it means that the top reciprocating weight of the female rod is a lot heavier by default to the male top reciprocating weight ,which is totally false....
It is not false, Ray,

Please remember that the bottoms of the rods also rise and fall with the stroke, so a proportion of the bottoms also reciprocate.

That is why we hang them!
Surely you knew that? It is fundamental to motor balancing.

....Cotten
PS: My sheets are in MSPublisher, so I must scan one.
Cotten
Senior Member
Posts: 6937
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2002 2:30 am
Bikes: -
Location: Central Illinois
Has thanked: 112 times
Been thanked: 310 times

Re: Harley engine balancing, reverse engineering, and balanc

#54

Post by Cotten »

Hey Ray!

An interested fellow came by with a "smart phone", and brought up a few of your pics of your apparati.

It took magnifier glasses, but it was immediately apparent that you have restrained and encumbered the rods as you hang them.

You would do better with sewing thread.

Seriously Ray,... in all earnest, and in all honesty.

....Cotten
saddlebagrail
Member
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:16 am
Bikes: FLH 67
FX77
FL 66
FLHTC98
Location: N-B
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 37 times
Contact:

Re: Harley engine balancing, reverse engineering, and balanc

#55

Post by saddlebagrail »

You are absolutely right Mr Cotton,I should stop balancing engine right away,poor balancing device I got there,also I would say that those C3 bearings are very hard to turn and make extreme restriction on end rods,sorry again to brought up my pictures and stories,hope you would apologize for all my mistakes,I should have listen to you at first and do exactly what you did ,hopefully in a near future you could bring a complete story about it,I am sure some here would like to know how you really do your things,again I apologize for what I bring here on this forum,I should have keep it to myself,I am learning everyday and hopefully some day I will be able to do it right like you,Ray :)
Locked

Return to “Articles”