searching for oilpressure

[RooDog]

Yes Awander and Patrolcustoms I do have my left and right mixed up but you do understand these are drain back holes
Good luck with it

No, Sir!

The holes he circled in red on the Right case half are oil SUPPLY holes.

Those two holes are drilled to provide oil feed to the hydraulic lifters, and up through the jugs to the rockers until 1963 when they, or just the front ones, were plugged and oil rerouted through the cam cover to the heads. And otherwise rerouted for Shovelheads. In all Pan & Shovels the oil returns ore on the sprocket side of the engine. Intersecting oil feed holes in the lifter block pads are not drilled in early Pans with solid lifter/tappets.
If those two circled holes are not open no oil will get to the top end, assuming his jugs are also drilled for oiling.
Now, let's put that issue to bed and get on with the original question.

[patrolcustoms]

Yes Awander and Patrolcustoms I do have my left and right mixed up but you do understand these are drain back holes
Good luck with it

No, Sir!

The holes he circled in red on the Right case half are oil SUPPLY holes.

Those two holes are drilled to provide oil feed to the hydraulic lifters, and up through the jugs to the rockers until 1963 when they, or just the front ones, were plugged and oil rerouted through the cam cover to the heads.

i like the idea to back to the initial question but
we talked about the red marked holes...this holes - sorry to say - are for suppling top end with oiling.... the green holes are for the lifter supply.

see picture and chart out of the book

[Eb74UL]

To patrolcustoms,

Now that I believe that the oil holes are sorted out, you may wish to identify correctly your case halves. I believe your right side case is 63 to 65 outside oiler. Your left case, I have no idea but they do not have oil return holes so this should be a clue for the year.

I have joined a picture of the outside oiler passage bolt and casting boss of my 1963 panhead, it is exactly like yours. I do not know if earlier right side cases had that same casting boss but if they do, then it's possible somebody could have drilled those holes.

Now about the 2 oil feed holes in red circle on your right side case, I remember that my 1963 right side case had that same hole for the front cylinder but it was plugged with a steel plug. I do not remember if there was another for the rear cylinder. So it is not impossible that you have a 63-65 outside oiler right side case, but that somebody drilled the steel plugs out of the oil feed holes if they intended to run heads that are not outside oiler (earlier Heads).

I do not know if you can identify right side engine cases with the S&S tech sheet since oil pump holes could have been drilled to fit a newer style pump.

Back to your oil pressure issue.
My understanding is that you can loose oil pressure at the pinion bushing or at the lifter blocks or at the rocker arms.

Pinion Bushing: If you are using a side feed crankshaft then the clearance between the pinion bushing and the crankshaft pin is critical because it is receiving oil pressure.

Lifter blocks: Critical as well, you can loose a lot of pressure there, I do not understand that those holes were plugged in you engine. oil feed to your lifter's body would have been coming only from splashing... Solid lifter are available for those who wish to use solid, no need to plug the oil feed holes. I do not understand this.

Rocker arms: I would think that if those are worn out as well, but you may still see some oil pressure because the oil passages are small going up there but I have no experience with that other than to say that I have put new ones in mine.

My 1963 panhead has about 22 pounds of oil pressure at road speed with 20W50 oil and stock cast iron oil pump. However, I use custom 3 to 1 ratio oil pump gears instead of the factory 4 to 1 (or was it 5 to 1 ?). When I bought that bike, the engine had zero oil pressure. I replaced eveything so I cannot say what was at fault. However, on my shovel I replaced the lifter blocks and the lifters and my oil pressure came right back up.

My guess is that your lifters are shot, oil feed was blocked...
Your rocker arms are probably shot as well if they were run withouth any pressure but the friction area is very wide on the panhead rockers so maybe not.
I would fit a new pinion bushing and get a new pinion shaft, you do not want to go there again...

[awander]

Regarding the oil feed holes for the heads in the left case; if you install an outside oiler head, the oil will have nowhere to go, so no need to plug them.

[patrolcustoms]

thx eb74ul for helping to sort out the problem!

To patrolcustoms,

Now that I believe that the oil holes are sorted out, you may wish to identify correctly your case halves. I believe your right side case is 63 to 65 outside oiler. Your left case, I have no idea but they do not have oil return holes so this should be a clue for the year.

I have joined a picture of the outside oiler passage bolt and casting boss of my 1963 panhead, it is exactly like yours. I do not know if earlier right side cases had that same casting boss but if they do, then it's possible somebody could have drilled those holes.

Now about the 2 oil feed holes in red circle on your right side case, I remember that my 1963 right side case had that same hole for the front cylinder but it was plugged with a steel plug. I do not remember if there was another for the rear cylinder. So it is not impossible that you have a 63-65 outside oiler right side case, but that somebody drilled the steel plugs out of the oil feed holes if they intended to run heads that are not outside oiler (earlier Heads).

I do not know if you can identify right side engine cases with the S&S tech sheet since oil pump holes could have been drilled to fit a newer style pump.

yes, your right with the identifing. either a 63-65 with drilling the chain oiler passage and hopefully drilled head feed oils (didnt check back in the days when the engine was disassembed if there is a flow possible; but the heads are getting some kind of oil because they are leaking oil as hell at the valve cover gasket) or 54-62 with a extension to put the outside oiler heads on it.
i will check your chart later.

Back to your oil pressure issue.
My understanding is that you can loose oil pressure at the pinion bushing or at the lifter blocks or at the rocker arms.

yes same understanding here!

Pinion Bushing: If you are using a side feed crankshaft then the clearance between the pinion bushing and the crankshaft pin is critical because it is receiving oil pressure.

sorry to ask but what is a side feed crankshaft? could you explan?
the clearance for the bushing i need to check! this is allready on my list

Lifter blocks: Critical as well, you can loose a lot of pressure there, I do not understand that those holes were plugged in you engine. oil feed to your lifter's body would have been coming only from splashing... Solid lifter are available for those who wish to use solid, no need to plug the oil feed holes. I do not understand this.

Rocker arms: I would think that if those are worn out as well, but you may still see some oil pressure because the oil passages are small going up there but I have no experience with that other than to say that I have put new ones in mine.

lifter blocks & tappets are new. the old ones where plugged. i didnt find the article right now but there is one here in the knowledge base that you want to use solids in a hydro case that you will get an oil pressure problem and as a solution you could tap the lifter blocks. anyhow it not longer the case because the ones are not tapped and i like to put in hydraulics in the next step to how pressure is hopefully raising.-)

rocker arms are good. 3 month ago i pulled the heads because a problem with rear head and an air leak. so a engine builder with a lot of experience here in Germany assemble the heads for me and check everything there for a problem. he would tell me if something is worn, but i will ask him again. and again as sign that the oil-feed is drilled to get feed for the heads - as we had the heads out and disassembled there where no sign that they dint get oil.

My 1963 panhead has about 22 pounds of oil pressure at road speed with 20W50 oil and stock cast iron oil pump. However, I use custom 3 to 1 ratio oil pump gears instead of the factory 4 to 1 (or was it 5 to 1 ?). When I bought that bike, the engine had zero oil pressure. I replaced eveything so I cannot say what was at fault. However, on my shovel I replaced the lifter blocks and the lifters and my oil pressure came right back up.

My guess is that your lifters are shot, oil feed was blocked...
Your rocker arms are probably shot as well if they were run withouth any pressure but the friction area is very wide on the panhead rockers so maybe not.
I would fit a new pinion bushing and get a new pinion shaft, you do not want to go there again...

my next step is to check with hydro lifter if there is a stable pressure when hot. all parts are here i only need some time to install.

if the result is not perfect i will disassemble the cam cover and check the pinion bushing and shaft and for my only freedom at least one head again to check if the heads get enough oil and the oil feed in case are free! not sure if i pull a head or only the valve cover of the front cylinder and run the motor and see there is oil dripping.

one question i have: you are talking about oil pump gears. did i get this right that your intention was for the change to 3:1 from factory ratio that the pump is pumping more? where i get this kind of gears for my sifton pump?

thx patrick

[Eb74UL]

patrolcustoms,

About the side oiler question:

I believe there are only 2 types of pinion shaft: Side oiler and End oiler

1) A Side oiler pinion feeds oil to the rods roller bearings through a hole on the side of the end of the pinion shaft. Then end of the pinion shaft is solid, no holes.
The pinion bushing in the cam cover has a hole that lines up with the hole on the side of the pinion shaft (pinion bushing has to be installed properly in the cover for those 2 holes to match). So the rod roller bearings are fed oil intermittently, only when those 2 holes line up, once every crankshaft turn.
Because of that limited intermittent flow, the oil flowing from the pump to the pinion hole in the cam cover comes directly from the pressure side of the oil pump. So if your pinion bushing and pinion shaft clearance is too big you will loose a lot of oil pressure there.

2) An end oiler pinion shaft sends oil to the rod bearings through a hole at the end of the pinion shaft, Engine which use this kind of oiling do not have oil pressure feeding this hole, it is just flowing in at low pressure, pinion clearance is not as critical on this type of oiling system, you will not loose oil pressure there. I had a discussion with some tech guy many many years ago and the guy was saying they had done some testing and that the rotation fo the cranksahft was actually even sucking oil from the pinion end.

If you study both oiling diagrams you will clearly see the difference in feeding oil to those 2 types of pinion shaft.

I know it is possible to convert a side oiling to an end oiling pinion but I do not recall if it can be done and still use the cast iron pump.

I wanted to keep using the cast iron pump and so when I rebuild my engine I used a side oiler pinion system.

About the pump drive gears:
Again, because I wanted to keep using the cast iron pump, and wanted to make sure I would have good oil pressure, I happen to find a shop called Baisley out of california that were selling custom ratio oil pump drive gears.
I am talking about the worm gear pair that drives the pump, the one on the pinion shaft and the one on the pump drive shaft inside the cam cover.
But that's 20 years ago, they were selling 3 to 1 and 2 to 1 ratios. I bought both and used the 3 to 1.

I believe this is their web site today but I am not sure those are the same guys : http://baisley.com/index.htm
If you look under their "Products" section you will find they sell 2 to 1 ratio gears for 90 to 92 engines, don't know if you could use those or adapt them on a Pan...
2 to 1 is fairly agressive pîtch, if you go that route you may wish to use 20W50 oil (which is what I use with my 3 to 1 ratio) instead of straight 50.

Another option, if I recall correctly, I think factory Panhead pump drive grears were 5 to 1 ratio and that shovelhead gears are 4 to 1, and that they are interchangeable. If this is correct you could use the shovelhead gears and get more volume from the pump and thus potentially more pressure.

Also, I use an oil cooler with a thermostat.

Eb

[patrolcustoms]

patrolcustoms,

About the side oiler question:

I believe there are only 2 types of pinion shaft: Side oiler and End oiler

1) A Side oiler pinion feeds oil to the rods roller bearings through a hole on the side of the end of the pinion shaft. Then end of the pinion shaft is solid, no holes.
The pinion bushing in the cam cover has a hole that lines up with the hole on the side of the pinion shaft (pinion bushing has to be installed properly in the cover for those 2 holes to match). So the rod roller bearings are fed oil intermittently, only when those 2 holes line up, once every crankshaft turn.
Because of that limited intermittent flow, the oil flowing from the pump to the pinion hole in the cam cover comes directly from the pressure side of the oil pump. So if your pinion bushing and pinion shaft clearance is too big you will loose a lot of oil pressure there.

2) An end oiler pinion shaft sends oil to the rod bearings through a hole at the end of the pinion shaft, Engine which use this kind of oiling do not have oil pressure feeding this hole, it is just flowing in at low pressure, pinion clearance is not as critical on this type of oiling system, you will not loose oil pressure there. I had a discussion with some tech guy many many years ago and the guy was saying they had done some testing and that the rotation fo the cranksahft was actually even sucking oil from the pinion end.

If you study both oiling diagrams you will clearly see the difference in feeding oil to those 2 types of pinion shaft.

I know it is possible to convert a side oiling to an end oiling pinion but I do not recall if it can be done and still use the cast iron pump.

I wanted to keep using the cast iron pump and so when I rebuild my engine I used a side oiler pinion system.

About the pump drive gears:
Again, because I wanted to keep using the cast iron pump, and wanted to make sure I would have good oil pressure, I happen to find a shop called Baisley out of california that were selling custom ratio oil pump drive gears.
I am talking about the worm gear pair that drives the pump, the one on the pinion shaft and the one on the pump drive shaft inside the cam cover.
But that's 20 years ago, they were selling 3 to 1 and 2 to 1 ratios. I bought both and used the 3 to 1.

I believe this is their web site today but I am not sure those are the same guys : http://baisley.com/index.htm
If you look under their "Products" section you will find they sell 2 to 1 ratio gears for 90 to 92 engines, don't know if you could use those or adapt them on a Pan...
2 to 1 is fairly agressive pîtch, if you go that route you may wish to use 20W50 oil (which is what I use with my 3 to 1 ratio) instead of straight 50.

Another option, if I recall correctly, I think factory Panhead pump drive grears were 5 to 1 ratio and that shovelhead gears are 4 to 1, and that they are interchangeable. If this is correct you could use the shovelhead gears and get more volume from the pump and thus potentially more pressure.

Also, I use an oil cooler with a thermostat.

Eb

eb, thx for clarification....hm i have no pictures made of the backside of my gear cover and have only a bad one where i see a side hole in the pinionshaft.
i heard about the end oiler and find some pic mostly out of s&s engines....

but it seems i need to disassamble the cover and take a look AFTER i check pressure with hydros and test if there are enough oil in the heads...

what do you think, is it a good test to run the front cylinder with out valve cover or do i pull both heads again?

[patrolcustoms]

here a picture of the pinionshaft

[Eb74UL]

Patrolcustoms,

I do not know at what stage of completion you are on this engine nor how you saw the low oil pressure.

From what you are saying it looks like your engine is almost all assembled back together.

Did you start it and found low oil pressure?

Did you change the lifter blocks and then started it again and still had low oil pressure?

The pinion bushing to pinion shaft fit cannot be verified when installed.
There is a special reamer that you run through the right case when it is dissasembled from the left case. You run this reamer with the cam cover installed on the right case and new bushing properly installed. That is the only way to insure the bushing fits correctly.

Once you've done that it would be a very very very good idea to install a new pinion shaft on your crankshaft...
You don't want to go there again!

About the picture of your pinion, is is a side oiler but I cannot tell if it has wear, it looks like some oil on the end.
If the cam cover was changed without reaming a new bushing with the right tool, it is likely that the pinion rubbed in the bushing and took some wear. Since you have a '63 to '65 right case and an earlier cam cover it raises doubt on the pinion bushing fit...

Your engine is so made up of "matched" components that I would question every thing about how it was put together.
It's not impossible to make it work it's just that it takes someone that really know what he is doing.

Your top end oiling is a good example, outside oiler heads are rare and so is the passage bolt cam cover, I waited a long time to find one. I am not surprised that someone decided to go with earlier heads and feed oil to them throught the case holes.

If it was me, unless your pinion shaft looks like new, I would rebuild the crankshaft with a new pinion shaft and fit a new bushing in the cam cover (Make sure the shop has the righ tooling to do this, ask to see it, if not, buy the tool and do it yourself) you can always change pumps or lifter blocks or even rocker arms later on, but going back to the pinion is not a small task.

Decide if you want to run a cast oil pump or a newer oil pump, you could switch to and end oiler pinion shaft and never wonder about pinion fit again...

You need to make sure the shop you deal with is knowledgeable in Harley Panheads, that is getting very rare these days!

About running your engine with the valve cover off.
I am not sure what you would conclude from that, oil pressure gauge gives you a good indication of clearance in your engine. If your cylinders have the feed holes going into the head and your head and cylinder gaskets all match that and that you have verified that all those holes are free of any dirt or debris, I see no reason to do the running that you propose. Keep in mind that when the pistons go up, the breather valve opening in the case is closed and this helps to draw down the oil form the heads into the case. I you run without covers you may not be able to verify if oil draining works properly.

If your engine is all put together and ready to run and you just changed the lifter blocks then yes, give it try...

Eb

[patrolcustoms]

Patrolcustoms,

I do not know at what stage of completion you are on this engine nor how you saw the low oil pressure.

From what you are saying it looks like your engine is almost all assembled back together.

Did you start it and found low oil pressure?

Did you change the lifter blocks and then started it again and still had low oil pressure?

The pinion bushing to pinion shaft fit cannot be verified when installed.
There is a special reamer that you run through the right case when it is dissasembled from the left case. You run this reamer with the cam cover installed on the right case and new bushing properly installed. That is the only way to insure the bushing fits correctly.

Once you've done that it would be a very very very good idea to install a new pinion shaft on your crankshaft...
You don't want to go there again!

About the picture of your pinion, is is a side oiler but I cannot tell if it has wear, it looks like some oil on the end.
If the cam cover was changed without reaming a new bushing with the right tool, it is likely that the pinion rubbed in the bushing and took some wear. Since you have a '63 to '65 right case and an earlier cam cover it raises doubt on the pinion bushing fit...

Your engine is so made up of "matched" components that I would question every thing about how it was put together.
It's not impossible to make it work it's just that it takes someone that really know what he is doing.

Your top end oiling is a good example, outside oiler heads are rare and so is the passage bolt cam cover, I waited a long time to find one. I am not surprised that someone decided to go with earlier heads and feed oil to them throught the case holes.

If it was me, unless your pinion shaft looks like new, I would rebuild the crankshaft with a new pinion shaft and fit a new bushing in the cam cover (Make sure the shop has the righ tooling to do this, ask to see it, if not, buy the tool and do it yourself) you can always change pumps or lifter blocks or even rocker arms later on, but going back to the pinion is not a small task.

Decide if you want to run a cast oil pump or a newer oil pump, you could switch to and end oiler pinion shaft and never wonder about pinion fit again...

You need to make sure the shop you deal with is knowledgeable in Harley Panheads, that is getting very rare these days!

About running your engine with the valve cover off.
I am not sure what you would conclude from that, oil pressure gauge gives you a good indication of clearance in your engine. If your cylinders have the feed holes going into the head and your head and cylinder gaskets all match that and that you have verified that all those holes are free of any dirt or debris, I see no reason to do the running that you propose. Keep in mind that when the pistons go up, the breather valve opening in the case is closed and this helps to draw down the oil form the heads into the case. I you run without covers you may not be able to verify if oil draining works properly.

If your engine is all put together and ready to run and you just changed the lifter blocks then yes, give it try...

Eb

thx

the pictures i posted here are old ones 4years ago....the motor is assembled in runs since 2500 miles. and has when it hot is no oil pressure....
when i bought the bike 6 years ago it has no oil light or gauge on it. so i ride it like hell but at one stage i put a gauge on it and found out that hen hot no pressure.

3 month ago i need to pull the heads because of the problem with an intake leak. we check all internals from the heads and found an bad valve. that was the point where i build new tappets and lifterblocks because the old ones looks very bad. a good engine builder with a lot of panhead experience rebuild the heads.

if need to do the pinon shaft and the bushing i would go for an s&s oilpump https://www.wwag.com/en/sands-oil-pumps-62-042
instead of my old sifton....

[awander]

When my '52 Pan is hot, it runs with just a bit over 4 PSI pressure.

[Eb74UL]

Lots of people would say they run their pan or shovel with no oil pressure at all and that it is fine. I have heard that for years and I certainly don't intend to argue about this. I am also not a "by the book" person so I don't intent to make this a point. But for me, when I see anything running on a bushing, like rocker arms, or in a sleeve, like lifters (especially with the crazy angle), I prefer to have some kind of pressure feeding oil to it. But if it works for you, it's all that matters. I just share my experience here and really appreciate other's as well.

Eb

[patrolcustoms]

my gauge shows almost nothing when hot. only with high revs there is a bit...

i am also not the 'like the book' guy but my life experience tells me that there is something not like it should be. i try to use the bike like it is but it make no fun because i always have a bad feeling with it since i know that there must be at least some minor pressure.

and also i have some bad experience. 4 years ago when a ring job need to do i changed the pistons and rings i send the heads to a guy who told me he had a lot of experience with this. 4 years later i know he has no experience at all because what he did was very bad. as i said i got some airleak problems with the intake. back in the days i first start to find out where the pressure is going but i didnt find a bug. this winter i like to search again

and thx for all the infos and input. really appreciated.

[patrolcustoms]

one question again for clarification:
side oil / end oiling:
if my gear cover is for a side oiler pinion shaft and - as i see on the pictures - my pinionshaft have this side oil hole would it be better (or needed) that the pinion shaft get a no hole plug/ oil end plug to prevent that the oil can go thru hole at the end permanent?

okay if there is no play in the bushing it could go to the side hole only once per revolution but even the play is like i see in the books it will squeese the oil in all directions or?

thx.

[patrolcustoms]

one question again for clarification:
side oil / end oiling:
if my gear cover is for a side oiler pinion shaft and - as i see on the pictures - my pinionshaft have this side oil hole would it be better (or needed) that the pinion shaft get a no hole plug/ oil end plug to prevent that the oil can go thru hole at the end permanent?

okay if there is no play in the bushing it could go to the side hole only once per revolution but even the play is like i see in the books it will squeese the oil in all directions or?

thx.