transmission: shift from 2 in 3 needs very much force

transmission: shift from 2 in 3 needs very much force

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nifty
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Re: transmission: shift from 2 in 3 needs very much force

#16

Post by nifty »

Bob,
You're not the only guy in the world who shims shift drum end-float, it is a Factory recommended procedure in 40-47 SM, but not mentioned in some later SM.

In my experience, as dismantled, Shift Drum end-float seldom exceeds 0.015", which, whilst excessive, IMHO will not cause a shift problem in one specific gear, which is what poster patrolcustoms / Patrick is experiencing.

patrolcustoms / Patrick.

I carefully re-read all your posts, and see by your description re changing springs, that apparently you are using a footshift trans top (ratchet lid) and also foot-clutch. Are you using hand shift, tank lever & gate, or jockey lever?
This is why we like pictures, so we can see what you have and don't have to ask you unnecessary questions.

Inside ratchet mechanism, is 34560-52 ADAPTER PLATE notch correctly aligned with notch of 34453-52 SHIFTER SHAFT?
Adaptor plate alignment.jpg
Adaptor plate alignment.jpg (170.75 KiB) Viewed 660 times
Adaptor Plate MUST be perfectly aligned with lid shifter shaft:
What I do:
Install follower/detent assembly (lubed), with detent assembled, cam/drum MUST BE in 3rd gear detent position. NOTE: Factory manuals all state "any gear other than neutral", however, in my experience, if timed in 1st or 2nd this can result in upshift undershifts to 3rd & 4th, which are longer fork travel than 1-2, the spring-loaded detent actually does the final movement of cam/drum, after the actual “shift”, not good, prone to missed shifts. IMO Timing the Adaptor Plate in 3rd helps ensure cam is fully positioned by pawls, thus minimising chance of undershifts.
Adaptor Plate timing notch must be perfectly aligned to notch in shifter shaft, adjust, then tighten the ¼” x 20 TPI screw in slotted hole of Adaptor Plate, re-check to ensure plate has not moved during screw tightening. This screw just holds adaptor plate until the rest of footshift mechanism is assembled, the long countersunk 3/16" screws into lid casting do most of the work of preventing subsequent movement of adaptor plate.

If you wish to first shim end-float of cam/drum

For many years MoCo spec Cam/Drum end-float was .0005”- .0065” (40-47 SM Free to .005"; later SM state .0005”- .007”), these days most are worn to .010”-.012”, not much can be done except a thin shim (40-47 SM states “make a shim”, this instruction deleted from some later SMs, usually a nominal 3/8” x ¾” x .005” shim does the trick. Shims in various thicknesses are available from commercial suppliers. Install shim at gear end, using a dummy round-nosed shaft to centralize shim, carefully push real shaft through shim, the trick is getting the shaft seal entered into lid without shim dropping into groove for screw. Holding lid with shaft vertical in soft-jawed vise helps. As does using an industrial #009 o-ring for shaft seal (not too tight, shaft can be pushed in without shim-displacing violence, but must check o-ring crush, seal groove depths in shafts sometimes vary).
Early ratchet lid castings have no shaft hole on Left side, also some aftermarket lid castings have no shaft hole on Right side (for "smooth" custom look), cannot “push-through” the above dummy shaft, have to centralize shim with dummy shaft, withdraw dummy shaft, insert real shaft without misaligning shim, PITA. Circa 68-78 OE and some repro lids have shaft hole drilled right through and dummy shaft can be pushed through with real shaft. Circa 68 lids at Left side have counterbore and originally a Welch plug closed off shaft hole (Hogey's lid is like this), later OE lids have plain, nominal 3/8" hole which is closed off by Adaptor Plate and its gasket.

Also, how much clearance do you have at your 34498-52 BUSHING, pawl carrier, to 34453-52 SHIFTER SHAFT ?
No H-D clearance spec, I like minimum 0.001”- maximum 0.002” and lube with Moly grease.

Nifty
Last edited by nifty on Tue Sep 19, 2023 10:05 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: transmission: shift from 2 in 3 needs very much force

#17

Post by patrolcustoms »

thx for all the replys. i am on holiday and read it carefully when i am back and could answer with more time and not on a mobile.

but somewhere i read a cotter could not make shifting probs.

see the pictures. thats i disassemble the tranny last year. that forces a problem to shift in 4th gear from time to time. the cotter head moves/rotate in the hole and jam the shifting thing….that's gone after rebuild but as i told you now 3th gear have a problem.
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Re: transmission: shift from 2 in 3 needs very much force

#18

Post by patrolcustoms »

nifty wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:12 am
Robert Luland wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:06 am What the hell is a splint?
I don't know about you Bob, but patrolcustoms' grasp of English, is way better than my German.

thx for the flowers :D
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Re: transmission: shift from 2 in 3 needs very much force

#19

Post by nifty »

Patrick

Re
1st/2nd AND 3rd/4th SHIFT CLUTCH CENTRALITY: (neutral/shift clutch central, equal gap each side of each shift clutch.
This is very important!

Re
12074-39 Alignment gauge tool, shift forks to E79.
Confusingly, the gauge tool is not "set" with shift drum in transmission neutral position.
Perhaps my clarified instructions may help

1. Use 12074-39 Alignment gauge tool, on lid with gauge dowels engaged with lid dowel holes, rotate shift cam/drum until straight portion of one drum track is adjacent to gauge tool, insert 3/8” rod into tool and drum straight track, tighten thumbscrew to lock this part of tool, remove rod.

2. Rotate drum again until straight portion of other drum track is adjacent to tool, insert rod again into this second straight drum track and tighten second thumbscrew to lock this part of gauge tool, remove rod.

3. Remove gauge tool from lid, flip gauge tool over and transfer gauge tool to transmission, engage trans lid dowels with corresponding holes of gauge tool, and engage shift finger rollers with gauge tool slots; measure centrality of shift clutches.

NOTE: The actual trans neutral position of shift drum, coincides with the straight portions of drum slots . Thus the straight portions were a convenient way for MoCo to design their tool.

Yes, there is approx .015" groove clearance, shift fork to shift clutch.
Yes, there is clearance between ID of shift finger rollers and shift fingers.
Yes, there is clearance between OD of shift finger rollers and tracks/slots of cam/drum.
Yes, there is end-float at Main Drive Gear and mainshaft 3rd gear and Countershaft gear and both free (bushed) gears on countershaft gear.
Yes, there is clearance between OD of shift finger rollers and slots of 12074-39 Alignment gauge tool.
None of which are addressed by use of 12074-39 Alignment gauge tool.
However, IMO before shift lid installed, the transmission neutral position, shift clutch centrality, must be carefully matched to shift drum.

The 12074-39 Alignment gauge tool does work, as do other methods, even a good eyeball is way better than hoping, guessing, or assuming that all will be well.

Instead of clumsy, stacked, feeler gauges, I use shop-made wire gauges of various OD* & approx 8” long to determine starting point dimensions and calculate movement direction and dimension to move/shim each fork on each finger, to achieve shift clutch centrality. *piano wire, welding rods, wire coat-hangers etc.

Adjust by shimming shift forks as required.

IMO "neutral" centrality of tips of dog teeth at shift clutches, between tips of dog teeth of gears, is more important than actual dimensions.

Regardless of Factory spec, IMO, with everything as it should be, typically the equal gaps I find are:
1-2 approx .062” to .065”
3-4 approx .094” to .102”.
However, IMO, if less than .060” at 1-2, there is a risk of overshift/side loading of forks etc. i.e. there is something wrong, find & fix.

The BT trans is no Rolex watch, but carefully built, they shift well, don't leak and are almost bullet-proof.

Nifty
Last edited by nifty on Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: transmission: shift from 2 in 3 needs very much force

#20

Post by Andygears »

A picture! Since you are running a hand shift and foot clutch with a ratchet top, you must have created linkage unique to your bike. An image to a new set of eyes might reveal a problem.
When working to shim the forks, did you have to remove the countershaft sprocket to remove the shifter fork shaft? If it was not retightened for the next checking, an erroneous setting could result.

In my own case, with a handshift and jockey top, all was adjusted correctly but would not engage 4th gear fully. Turns out linkage was hitting the jubilee horn power pac which had been installed later.

Before taking everything apart, I would revisit the clutch adjustment and insure it is disengaged fully and not loosing some travel from flexing of previous mentioned linkage.

My opinions, hope it helps

Andygears
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Re: transmission: shift from 2 in 3 needs very much force

#21

Post by nifty »

All.

Handy Hint for quickly and accurately determining "shoot-for" dimension "neutral" centrality of tips of dog teeth at shift clutches, between tips of dog teeth of gears,

Before shift shaft & forks are installed, at each shift clutch, rotate trans and or gears until dog tips all in-line, slide shift clutch against one gear (dog tip to dog tip), measure gap at other side (dog tip to dog tip) divide by 2 = "shoot-for, neutral centrality dimension". Write it down and repeat for other shift clutch.

A firm fit of feeler gauges, or wire. or length of square key steel plus one feeler gauge, and then adding ,0075" * to above dimension will account for most of the end-float variables mentioned earlier. *50% of .015" fork end-float in clutch groove, which is consistent with new OE & Andrews parts.

Nifty
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Re: transmission: shift from 2 in 3 needs very much force

#22

Post by RooDog »

nifty wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:53 pm Bob,
You're not the only guy in the world who shims shift drum end-float, it is a Factory recommended procedure in 40-47 SM, but not mentioned in some later SM.

In my experience, as dismantled, Shift Drum end-float seldom exceeds 0.015", which, whilst excessive, IMHO will not cause a shift problem in one specific gear, which is what poster patrolcustoms / Patrick is experiencing.

patrolcustoms / Patrick.

I carefully re-read all your posts, and see by your description re changing springs, that apparently you are using a footshift trans top (ratchet lid) and also foot-clutch. Are you using hand shift, tank lever & gate, or jockey lever?
This is why we like pictures, so we can see what you have and don't have to ask you unnecessary questions.

Inside ratchet mechanism, is 34560-52 ADAPTER PLATE notch correctly aligned with notch of 34453-52 SHIFTER SHAFT?

Adaptor plate alignment.jpg

Adaptor Plate MUST be perfectly aligned with lid shifter shaft:
What I do:
Install follower/detent assembly (lubed), with detent assembled, cam/drum MUST BE in 3rd gear detent position. NOTE: Factory manuals all state "any gear other than neutral", however, in my experience, if timed in 1st or 2nd this can result in upshift undershifts to 3rd & 4th, which are longer fork travel than 1-2, the spring-loaded detent actually does the final movement of cam/drum, after the actual “shift”, not good, prone to missed shifts. Timing the Adaptor Plate in 3rd helps ensure cam is fully positioned by pawls, thus minimising chance of undershifts.
Adaptor Plate timing notch must be perfectly aligned to notch in shifter shaft, adjust, then tighten the ¼” x 20 TPI screw in slotted hole of Adaptor Plate, re-check to ensure plate has not moved during screw tightening. This screw just holds adaptor plate until the rest of footshift mechanism is assembled, the long countersunk 3/16" screws into lid casting do most of the work of preventing subsequent movement of adaptor plate.

If you wish to first shim end-float of cam/drum

For many years MoCo spec Cam/Drum end-float was .0005”- .0065” (40-47 SM Free to .005"; later SM state .0005”- .007”), these days most are worn to .010”-.012”, not much can be done except a thin shim (40-47 SM states “make a shim”, this instruction deleted from some later SMs, usually a nominal 3/8” x ¾” x .005” shim does the trick. Shims in various thicknesses are available from commercial suppliers. Install shim at gear end, using a dummy round-nosed shaft to centralize shim, carefully push real shaft through shim, the trick is getting the shaft seal entered into lid without shim dropping into groove for screw. Holding lid with shaft vertical in soft-jawed vise helps. As does using an industrial #009 o-ring for shaft seal (not too tight, shaft can be pushed in without shim-displacing violence, but must check o-ring crush, seal groove depths in shafts sometimes vary).
Early ratchet lid castings have no shaft hole on Left side, also some aftermarket lid castings have no shaft hole on Right side (for "smooth" custom look), cannot “push-through” the above dummy shaft, have to centralize shim with dummy shaft, withdraw dummy shaft, insert real shaft without misaligning shim, PITA. Circa 68-78 OE and some repro lids have shaft hole drilled right through and dummy shaft can be pushed through with real shaft. Circa 68 lids at Left side have counterbore and originally a Welch plug closed off shaft hole (Hogey's lid is like this), later OE lids have plain, nominal 3/8" hole which is closed off by Adaptor Plate and its gasket.

Also, how much clearance do you have at your 34498-52 BUSHING, pawl carrier, to 34453-52 SHIFTER SHAFT ?
No H-D clearance spec, I like minimum 0.001”- maximum 0.002” and lube with Moly grease.

Nifty
Nifty....
Is it safe to "assume" that that Timing Notch should register in all four gear positions?
....RooDog....
nifty
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Re: transmission: shift from 2 in 3 needs very much force

#23

Post by nifty »

Nifty....
Is it safe to "assume" that that Timing Notch should register in all four gear positions?
....RooDog....
Roo,
No, I don't think it is safe to assume that.
Maybe some are same in all 4 gears.

On trans that I picked this anomaly up on, at least 2nd gear notch was slightly off, but after timing in 3rd gear, shifting into all gears was "clean",* pawls moved drum fully into every follower/detent position, without needing the follower/detent chisel point and spring force to assist with rotating cam/drum. *(as compared to when I initially timed using 2nd gear notch and final rotation of drum was after full movement by pawls.

On subsequent trannies I have timed in 3rd and got same "clean" shifting, but I just moved on without spending the extra time checking every gear timing.

When I do final assembly of Hogey's trans, I will check notch alignment in every gear and report.

Nifty
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Re: transmission: shift from 2 in 3 needs very much force

#24

Post by RooDog »

I had one of those pawl carrier spring break for me while out of town in 1969. That was a fun trip....
Also lost the master link , with no spare, but never again, on that trip. Always carry a spare on my key ring....
....RooDog.....
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Re: transmission: shift from 2 in 3 needs very much force

#25

Post by Mongrel505558 »

RooDog wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:08 pm I had one of those pawl carrier spring break for me while out of town in 1969. That was a fun trip....
Also lost the master link , with no spare, but never again, on that trip. Always carry a spare on my key ring....
....RooDog.....
I've seen a few broken pawl carrier springs. Maybe it's because they're bent into an arc, although you would think that being made of spring steel they could handle it.
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Re: transmission: shift from 2 in 3 needs very much force

#26

Post by RooDog »

If you wish to check your split-pin and gear for fouling against shift cam/drum, if you remove battery, oil tank & support plate, and clutch rod and clutch arm, trans lid should come off, without disturbing primaries, or removing trans. make sure you account for shift finger rollers.

Nifty
[/quote]

Woah, now!
To remove the oil tank doesn't the rear fender, and rear wheel, need to move out of the way?
Seems like a lot of effort to look inside the transmission.
I agree that we need to be sure of which style of transmission lid we are dealing with. Though not correct, some riders do actually have a hand shaker with a ratchet top, but most don't....
....RooDog....
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Re: transmission: shift from 2 in 3 needs very much force

#27

Post by patrolcustoms »

nifty wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:26 pm Patrick

Re
1st/2nd AND 3rd/4th SHIFT CLUTCH CENTRALITY: (neutral/shift clutch central, equal gap each side of each shift clutch.
This is very important!

Re
12074-39 Alignment gauge tool, shift forks to E79.
Confusingly, the gauge tool is not "set" with shift drum in transmission neutral position.
Perhaps my clarified instructions may help

1. Use 12074-39 Alignment gauge tool, on lid with gauge dowels engaged with lid dowel holes, rotate shift cam/drum until straight portion of one drum track is adjacent to gauge tool, insert 3/8” rod into tool and drum straight track, tighten thumbscrew to lock this part of tool, remove rod.

2. Rotate drum again until straight portion of other drum track is adjacent to tool, insert rod again into this second straight drum track and tighten second thumbscrew to lock this part of gauge tool, remove rod.

3. Remove gauge tool from lid, flip gauge tool over and transfer gauge tool to transmission, engage trans lid dowels with corresponding holes of gauge tool, and engage shift finger rollers with gauge tool slots; measure centrality of shift clutches.

NOTE: The actual trans neutral position of shift drum, coincides with the straight portions of drum slots . Thus the straight portions were a convenient way for MoCo to design their tool.

Yes, there is approx .015" groove clearance, shift fork to shift clutch.
Yes, there is clearance between ID of shift finger rollers and shift fingers.
Yes, there is clearance between OD of shift finger rollers and tracks/slots of cam/drum.
Yes, there is end-float at Main Drive Gear and mainshaft 3rd gear and Countershaft gear and both free (bushed) gears on countershaft gear.
Yes, there is clearance between OD of shift finger rollers and slots of 12074-39 Alignment gauge tool.
None of which are addressed by use of 12074-39 Alignment gauge tool.
However, IMO before shift lid installed, the transmission neutral position, shift clutch centrality, must be carefully matched to shift drum.

The 12074-39 Alignment gauge tool does work, as do other methods, even a good eyeball is way better than hoping, guessing, or assuming that all will be well.

Instead of clumsy, stacked, feeler gauges, I use shop-made wire gauges of various OD* & approx 8” long to determine starting point dimensions and calculate movement direction and dimension to move/shim each fork on each finger, to achieve shift clutch centrality. *piano wire, welding rods, wire coat-hangers etc.

Adjust by shimming shift forks as required.

IMO "neutral" centrality of tips of dog teeth at shift clutches, between tips of dog teeth of gears, is more important than actual dimensions.

Regardless of Factory spec, IMO, with everything as it should be, typically the equal gaps I find are:
1-2 approx .062” to .065”
3-4 approx .094” to .102”.
However, IMO, if less than .060” at 1-2, there is a risk of overshift/side loading of forks etc. i.e. there is something wrong, find & fix.

The BT trans is no Rolex watch, but carefully built, they shift well, don't leak and are almost bullet-proof.

Nifty
a question to assume if the prob i have is referable to not right centered shift clutch. whats the typical failure if a the shift clutch in 3/4th gear is not right centered?

was in the workshop today to bring my daily back after holidays and start some tests. its easy to shift in 1 and 2 gear if you want to shift in 3 gear i need a lot of force like that there is something blocking. after some pushing or with higher force 3 gear is possible to place.

when i read all your comments it looks for me
1. a not centerd 3/4 clutch
2. a not perfectly aligned adapter Plate with lid shifter shaft
3 too much play in cam/drum. this i didnt check when i rebuild it becaus as you mentioned in my book no gap is written
4. wrong shifter fork bushing as you mentioned

i think i need to disassemble it again to check all this things
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Re: transmission: shift from 2 in 3 needs very much force

#28

Post by RooDog »

How about some pictures?

Your problem sounds like the shifter linkage may be binding on a cylinder fin, not uncommon.
Get off the bike and take a look at the travel of that rod in all 4 gear positions. Often a pivot bolt, or nut, is hanging up on something.....
....RooDog....
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Re: transmission: shift from 2 in 3 needs very much force

#29

Post by patrolcustoms »

RooDog wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 10:40 pm How about some pictures?

Your problem sounds like the shifter linkage may be binding on a cylinder fin, not uncommon.
Get off the bike and take a look at the travel of that rod in all 4 gear positions. Often a pivot bolt, or nut, is hanging up on something.....
....RooDog....

see here.

and there is enough space between primary and the shifter
Last edited by patrolcustoms on Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: transmission: shift from 2 in 3 needs very much force

#30

Post by patrolcustoms »

shift.jpg
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