Used hydraulic tappet inserts that pass Service Manual Push and Hold Test

[RooDog]

The grooves I saw were probably just someone's numbering marks and not on a working surface.
BTW: I tried a set of H-D OEM hydraulics with an Andrews #3, .514" lift, cam. It ran OK until I hit big revs and one of them pumped up enough to hold its valve off of its seat, sounded like a rev limiter, until is bled down enough for the valve to regain its seating, and then we were running nicely again until the next time I hit some Hi revs. Back to solids, and the effect went away.

[nifty]

The grooves I saw were probably just someone's numbering marks and not on a working surface.
BTW: I tried a set of H-D OEM hydraulics with an Andrews #3, .514" lift, cam. It ran OK until I hit big revs and one of them pumped up enough to hold its valve off of its seat, sounded like a rev limiter, until is bled down enough for the valve to regain its seating, and then we were running nicely again until the next time I hit some Hi revs. Back to solids, and the effect went away.

IMHO

1. Oil pressure does not and cannot “pump up” hydraulic lifters, ever! Do the math, oil pressure against area of lifter plunger will never produce enough force to get close to exceeding opposing force induced by valve spring pressure. = “pump up” is a myth.
2. Zero valve lash/clearance on heel/base of cam is maintained by hyd lifter’s spring. (small external spring Pan & Shovel, internal spring Evo, Twinkie & millions of cars)
3. When tappet is on heel/base of cam, oil pressure re-fills/tops-up/replenishes any Hyd lifter oil that has been lost due to internal bypass leakage during valve open event (leakdown).
4. At normal street ridden H-D RPM, not a lot of pressure, or flow is required to top-up hyd lifter.
5. Over-filling of hyd lifter (wrongly described as “pump up”) can only occur if tappet loses contact with cam (loss of valve control).
6. Hyd lifter interprets loss of valve control as leak-down induced valve clearance, hyd lifter spring raises plunger & eliminates clearance, oil over-fills lifter, piston often hits valve, game over. These are not lifter, or oiling problems. Loss of valve control is a valve spring, or pushrod problem.
7. At high RPM, insufficient oil pressure may cause hyd lifters to not be replenished after valve open event leakdown. i.e. hyd lifter under-filled and therefore will not achieve hydraulically locked zero lash = loose rattle. Ergo High RPM hyd lifters and "travel limiters" marketed.

Valve float/bounce/loss of control, sounds and feels like a rev-limiter. (it is a rev limiter, but not one you want to have).

How simply changing from H-D hydraulic inserts to AM solid inserts "fixed" your self described loss of valve control, is mysterious.

Nifty

[RooDog]

There is no mystery.
That was over 20 years ago, things have changed since then.....
....RooDog....
PS: That #3 cam is hi-lift, short duration for LC engines, the same cam $&$ calls their 514....

[RUBONE]

Most high lift long duration cams do not have ramps designed for hydraulic lifter use, leading to the effect Nifty mentions due to lifter bounce.

[80Flh]

Just wanted to report that all but one AMF cast body lifter insert pass the test in the service manual. The one previously loctite glued in collapses too easily on the push and hold test when I let go to see if it will spring back up out of the body.
I have 7 that I will allow me to choose 4 to run and the new aluminum adjustable Mid USA/Bender Cycle pushrods.
Adjusted with the "dry method" I can see and learn how the motor performs. I must say I had no issues with the solid conversions that were in the bike along with the Sifton cam since 1980-81. Just bought the bike to learn about Shovel mystique. I had read that the original HD inserts were of good quality and a viable option provided you could find good used serviceable ones. Not sure about the $75 dollar set sold by V Twin 10-0333. But sounds like the Daytona set at double that would be great quality and "safe" to run.
Really appreciate all input, thanks all.

[80Flh]

OK I came up with one unanswered question, now that I have one hydraulic ioem AMF/HD nsert that fails to spring back after the 6-10 second push and hold test.
Repeated soaking in MMO and carb cleaner no improvement.
I.e. lifter insert piston does not bounce back like the seven good used ones. Not exactly sure what is the reason for a while thought it was check ball sticking, failure to seat or close. Do you believe it is due to piston plunger wear beyond the very close tolerance, failure to seat check ball or just plain wore out?
Curiosity killed the cat. Thanks all.

[RooDog]

I would suspect the fit between the plunger and the shell was worn outta spec. Or, maybe wasn't within spec to begin with. You should be able to block off the check valve's snorkel with you finger well enough to hold the required pressure....

[80Flh]

Thanks RooDog, I am thinking like you that it is just worn out of spec or perhaps was a bit off spec at time of manufacture machining during production.if it has a tiny bit of MMO it builds pressure and bounces almost normal, lol, but dry or clean of oil a failure to bounce. All in all very pleased and have 7 good originals without having to lay out huge $ for the S and S units. Your comments appreciated.

[RooDog]

Back in the early 1950s very few Mexican automobiles had hydraulic lifters. This was fairly new tech back then, and Harley, like most everybody else, was playin' in uncharted territory. I'm sure some expert out there will correct me on this, but in any case it wasn't until the Evolution engine that Harley started using modern hydraulics. So don't expect a lot out of that ancient design especially if they are worn to any degree.... But they shouldn't be prone to wear since they are always running in oil and don't move very much, unlike most other engine components. Remember that clean oil, changed often is the key, and do run an oil filter which Harley never was too keen on until the Evolution engine....
....RooDog....

[Larry]

I've often used hydraulic units that don't strictly pass the test but come close. Results are usually acceptable. I've always suspected that the piston and cylinder were select fit.