New starting routine
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New starting routine
when my '52 FL is cold, I have been starting it as follows:
ignition OFF
retard timing
choke on FULL
throttle fully open
3 prime kicks
choke to 1-click ON
ignition ON
throttle half open
usually it would start on the first kick
About a month and a half ago, I went on a 5-day 1000 mile trip with a friend.
During the trip, I started having more and more trouble starting the bike. It would always start eventually, but it seemed like it would get flooded easily.
It also started kicking back at me, even retarded fully.
When I got home, I checked the points, and the gap was smaller than it should have been, so I reset them to 0.022, and reset the timing.
I still had the same starting issues.
So I decided to do everything I could think of:
checked all bolts & fasteners for tightness
thoroughly clean and re-oil the mesh air filter
clean the fuel filter (there was some junk in it)
checked the valve lifter clearance
replaced the plugs; gapped the new ones at 0.025
replaced the points
Set the timing
checked for spark
This made no real difference, and I then tried the plugs gapped at 0.030, again with no difference.
All through this, once started, the bike runs great, no issues at all.
So, I've been experimenting with different starting sequences, and I am "pretty" sure that I have one that works, at least when the engine is cold:
ignition OFF
retard timing
choke on FULL
throttle 1/4 open
1 prime kick
choke fully OFF
ignition ON
throttle barely cracked open
usually it will start on the first kick
I highlighted all of the changes in the routine from what had been working for almost 2 years.
I'm trying to understand what might have changed, to cause my starting routine to need such drastic modification.
Does anyone have any ideas?
ignition OFF
retard timing
choke on FULL
throttle fully open
3 prime kicks
choke to 1-click ON
ignition ON
throttle half open
usually it would start on the first kick
About a month and a half ago, I went on a 5-day 1000 mile trip with a friend.
During the trip, I started having more and more trouble starting the bike. It would always start eventually, but it seemed like it would get flooded easily.
It also started kicking back at me, even retarded fully.
When I got home, I checked the points, and the gap was smaller than it should have been, so I reset them to 0.022, and reset the timing.
I still had the same starting issues.
So I decided to do everything I could think of:
checked all bolts & fasteners for tightness
thoroughly clean and re-oil the mesh air filter
clean the fuel filter (there was some junk in it)
checked the valve lifter clearance
replaced the plugs; gapped the new ones at 0.025
replaced the points
Set the timing
checked for spark
This made no real difference, and I then tried the plugs gapped at 0.030, again with no difference.
All through this, once started, the bike runs great, no issues at all.
So, I've been experimenting with different starting sequences, and I am "pretty" sure that I have one that works, at least when the engine is cold:
ignition OFF
retard timing
choke on FULL
throttle 1/4 open
1 prime kick
choke fully OFF
ignition ON
throttle barely cracked open
usually it will start on the first kick
I highlighted all of the changes in the routine from what had been working for almost 2 years.
I'm trying to understand what might have changed, to cause my starting routine to need such drastic modification.
Does anyone have any ideas?
Last edited by awander on Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New starting routine
Andy
Chemical make up of fuel may have changed (again) ?
Some folk believe the way spark plugs are manufactured changed once EFI became mainstream.
Supposedly: EFI controls FA mixture so well that there is never a seriously "rich" event.
Previously the porcelain insulators were glazed for them to be able to cope with "rich" events.
Supposedly Plug manufacturers cottoned on to deleting the glaze process to save money.
Unfortunately for us dinosaurs, our carbs subject the unglazed plugs to "rich" events, which supposedly quickly degrades/kills the new modern manufacture plugs.
Supposedly a single "rich" event will affect modern plugs.
One article advocated finding old stock plugs for carb engines.
However, when I was a youth, sandblasting all plugs in the Champion plug blaster/tester machine was standard procedure for every tune-up, at every corner garage. In early SMs, MoCo advocate sandblast cleaning plugs.
Surely this removed, or degraded any "glaze" on combustion area of pre-EFI dino plugs?
I don't know, but I suspect something has changed, many people running carbs report bad running or stoppage, plugs look ok, problem miraculously fixed by new plugs.
Whether its the plugs, fuel, combination of both, or something else, I don't know.
Read more on glazed plugs here http://www.motoscrubs.com/forum/viewtop ... f=3&t=2862
Nifty
Chemical make up of fuel may have changed (again) ?
Some folk believe the way spark plugs are manufactured changed once EFI became mainstream.
Supposedly: EFI controls FA mixture so well that there is never a seriously "rich" event.
Previously the porcelain insulators were glazed for them to be able to cope with "rich" events.
Supposedly Plug manufacturers cottoned on to deleting the glaze process to save money.
Unfortunately for us dinosaurs, our carbs subject the unglazed plugs to "rich" events, which supposedly quickly degrades/kills the new modern manufacture plugs.
Supposedly a single "rich" event will affect modern plugs.
One article advocated finding old stock plugs for carb engines.
However, when I was a youth, sandblasting all plugs in the Champion plug blaster/tester machine was standard procedure for every tune-up, at every corner garage. In early SMs, MoCo advocate sandblast cleaning plugs.
Surely this removed, or degraded any "glaze" on combustion area of pre-EFI dino plugs?
I don't know, but I suspect something has changed, many people running carbs report bad running or stoppage, plugs look ok, problem miraculously fixed by new plugs.
Whether its the plugs, fuel, combination of both, or something else, I don't know.
Read more on glazed plugs here http://www.motoscrubs.com/forum/viewtop ... f=3&t=2862
Nifty
Last edited by nifty on Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: New starting routine
Sure sign that Earth's magnetic poles are reversing!!
Could your clutch be slipping slightly?
Could your clutch be slipping slightly?
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Re: New starting routine
Some thoughts...
To state the obvious, cold starting with warmer ambient air temperature means less priming fuel needed, conversely cooler ambient air means more fuel needed. Sorry if that sounds all too obvious but sometimes obvious gets overlooked.
If I don't get my cold start priming fuel amount reasonably close to suit current conditions, I have to appease the gods of speed with extra right leg exercises
If I try a winter cold start routine in summer, it fails. Same with summer routine in winter. If I want a one kick start I have to match closely the fuel priming requirement.
Realize, your cold start fuel requirements are a "moving target", moving with the seasons. Back to winter chill and you might well go back to 3 choke-primes. There is no one prime routine that does all seasons, or at least not ideally.
Fun bikes these old kick only's. Wouldn't have it any other way.
Hope this helps. Good luck
To state the obvious, cold starting with warmer ambient air temperature means less priming fuel needed, conversely cooler ambient air means more fuel needed. Sorry if that sounds all too obvious but sometimes obvious gets overlooked.
If I don't get my cold start priming fuel amount reasonably close to suit current conditions, I have to appease the gods of speed with extra right leg exercises
If I try a winter cold start routine in summer, it fails. Same with summer routine in winter. If I want a one kick start I have to match closely the fuel priming requirement.
Realize, your cold start fuel requirements are a "moving target", moving with the seasons. Back to winter chill and you might well go back to 3 choke-primes. There is no one prime routine that does all seasons, or at least not ideally.
Fun bikes these old kick only's. Wouldn't have it any other way.
Hope this helps. Good luck
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Re: New starting routine
If you have the equipment, try a cylinder leak down test just to make sure the valves are seating tight. It doesn't take much deposit to unseat a valve enough to make for hard starts and still allow the motor to run and idle perfect once started. Ever notiice after a fresh rebuild that the bike usually starts with half a kick without performing the vaudeville act.
Just a thought,
Mike
Just a thought,
Mike
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Re: New starting routine
My starting procedure is almost identical to yours with 3 prime kicks with choke fully closed. Open choke to one position down, retard spark about 1/3, throttle barely open. I would suggest playing with throttle position. Don’t know the reason but when I used to crack throttle 1/4 to 1/3 it was harder to start. Hot start definitely no throttle.
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Re: New starting routine
If a valve is not fully closed that cylinder will not work. The intake vacuum will be drawn from the leak (even if it's an exhaust valve)instead of the carburetor, the compression stroke will escape.
Perfect idle means accurate valve seating and no intake or other air leaks (manifold, nipples, valve guides, blown gasket, cracked head).
Perfect idle means accurate valve seating and no intake or other air leaks (manifold, nipples, valve guides, blown gasket, cracked head).
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Re: New starting routine
Watch circuit breaker pull back retard 3/4 to 1/2 even if still hot . Do a dead kick to clean out cylinders and then turn on and kick it is a combo to learn without flooding
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Re: New starting routine
Maybe I just have a sensitive nose but when starting cold I usually, with choke closed, and switch off, kick about 3 kicks and sniff, smell gas? No? Couple more key off kicks. Fully retarded, cold motor, usually starts next kick with key on. I dunno, the sniff test works for me.
Andygears
Andygears
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Re: New starting routine
Another sometimes overlooked obvious...
There is cool, cold and real cold.
Where I live and probably places like Florida, it gets coldish a few days per year, never gets real cold, here there is no seasonal difference in starting procedure, first time I ever used choke on a Harley (or any bike) was 1978, when I rode a kick-only Shovel with an SU, 1100miles south, to Melbourne. I forget what time of year/season it was, but next morning it refused to start until I choked it, to keep running I had to use some choke until warm. It was like that the whole time I was there. Back home it returned to cold start and idle with no choke, a little warm up and go, all year round. (ex car 1-3/4" SU with appropriate needle etc, not Rivera)
Where it does get real cold, winter fuel is formulated differently to aid starting, even old time leaded "Premium" had winter additive.
Nifty
There is cool, cold and real cold.
Where I live and probably places like Florida, it gets coldish a few days per year, never gets real cold, here there is no seasonal difference in starting procedure, first time I ever used choke on a Harley (or any bike) was 1978, when I rode a kick-only Shovel with an SU, 1100miles south, to Melbourne. I forget what time of year/season it was, but next morning it refused to start until I choked it, to keep running I had to use some choke until warm. It was like that the whole time I was there. Back home it returned to cold start and idle with no choke, a little warm up and go, all year round. (ex car 1-3/4" SU with appropriate needle etc, not Rivera)
Where it does get real cold, winter fuel is formulated differently to aid starting, even old time leaded "Premium" had winter additive.
Nifty
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Re: New starting routine
Try it with no choke at all, couple prime kicks, retard, throttle closed, key on, kick. Might work if you are a bit too rich on the idle. Is the battery up to snuff? My bikes would usually start with no choke if they had been run previously that day....
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Re: New starting routine
So I've been going out and trying different starting routines every 3 or 4 hors (to let it cool off in between) for the last week.
I've found that the routine that I thought was working (reported at the beginning of this thread) was in fact, not reliable.
The last 8 times I've started it, though, I've gone back to my original starting routine that I used before the new heads:
ignition OFF, choke on FULL, throttle wide open, 3 prime kicks.
retard timing, move choke to 1-click from OFF, ignition ON, throttle wide open, starts on first kick.
I'm not sure why things changed, and I will keep an eye on it to see if I can figure it out, but I am happy with the way things are now!
I've found that the routine that I thought was working (reported at the beginning of this thread) was in fact, not reliable.
The last 8 times I've started it, though, I've gone back to my original starting routine that I used before the new heads:
ignition OFF, choke on FULL, throttle wide open, 3 prime kicks.
retard timing, move choke to 1-click from OFF, ignition ON, throttle wide open, starts on first kick.
I'm not sure why things changed, and I will keep an eye on it to see if I can figure it out, but I am happy with the way things are now!
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Re: New starting routine
My starting routine is identical except for the throttle position. Good to get it dialed in. We’re too old to be kicking over bikes ‘till your knee gives out.