Oil pump check valve.

Lubrication System (oil feed pump and scavenger pump, reservoir, filter, and lines)
George Greer
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Re: Oil pump check valve.

#16

Post by George Greer »

Jim,

Once I get the seal pocket machined, I intend to take a new stainless steel ball, and silver solder it to a length of steel rod after machining a center spot on the rod.

Then using a mixture of cigarette ash's, pumice and toothpaste, burnish/polish the seat.

I had thought of doing something different to the pocket where the ball seats, but am going to try the K.I.S.S. principal first.

Photos to follow.

George
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Re: Oil pump check valve.

#17

Post by George Greer »

Ok,

Got around to working on the pump again.

Machined the pocket for the seal

Machined another PEEK ball, this time with a larger diameter stem and a bit longer.

Made a "burnisher" tool, used baking soda and scouring powder to burnish the seat. Was not doing much good. Sooo, took the tool I made to the machine shop and used their sandblaster with around 150 grit aluminum oxide media, blasted the tool.

Then put the tool into my hand held electric drill, burnished the seat with it until the ball had a nice even polished line around the entire ball.

Used our engine borescope to check the seat and I am quite pleased with the outcome, and I took a photo of it with my cell phone, but it is not the clearest, but I will try to take a better one.

George
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Re: Oil pump check valve.

#18

Post by hplhd »

thanks george
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Re: Oil pump check valve.

#19

Post by Frankenstein »

George, what did you use for a cutter to make the seal recess for the shaft seal? I've a bridgeport now, and the addition of the seal intrigues me.
I know you ended up not going with the cigarette ash as a burnishing compound, but urban (old geezer?) legend has it that cigar ash is finer! A friend told me that in reference to getting a tapered gas petcock to seal.
Also, I've always thought a stronger spring would do no harm on the anti leakdown ball, as the oil flow is pressurized there, and making it harder to open the ball with a stiffer spring probably wouldn't hurt peformance. I just haven't had the balls to try it on one of my own engines.
DL
Maybe going to a 3 angle seat for the ball wouldn't be a bad idea either, Cotten was always advocating a small vs broad seat on his pump work.
Just ideas, I'm glad to let you do the R&D, and let the rest of us benefit on this one!
George Greer
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Re: Oil pump check valve.

#20

Post by George Greer »

Dick,

4 fluted 16mm end mill cutter.

Slow, and a lot of oil. Milling cast iron is dirty.

And the photo of the borescope screen the seat is the light blue area, not the long wide tapered looking area.........Don't know why but the borescope's image came out like the pic.

The actual seat is not that large.

I will try and get better photos of the seat, and my engine shop buddy told me to bring in a sd card and we can capture the images directly, and not take screen shot photos with my phone.

See how that works on Monday.

George
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Re: Oil pump check valve.

#21

Post by james »

Nice work with the R&D George, looks like your getting closer.
Keep it going.

Jim M
George Greer
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Re: Oil pump check valve.

#22

Post by George Greer »

Couple of borescope photos.

I wish that they would have came out in better focus, the range on the scope is something like 1/2", so I got as close as I could to capture a decent photo of the seat.

George
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George Greer
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Re: Oil pump check valve.

#23

Post by George Greer »

One more photo of the seat after I played around with the photo edit feature on my home computer.

Adjusted contrast, color, tone....ect.

As you can see, the closer I get in, less of the seat is in view.

George
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George Greer
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Re: Oil pump check valve.

#24

Post by George Greer »

Old thread but I thought that I should follow up on my idea and experiment with the PEEK.

I did not solve wet-sumping with what I did, the engine will still puke out a couple of tablespoons of oil even after 2 days of setting.

I was hoping that it would have worked, but it did not.

So, now I am going to replace the PEEK ball&stem one I made, with a ball that is make from Viton material, graciously donated/supplied for this application, by a fellow board member.

Now the ID10T question:

Am I going to have to drain the oil tank to keep oil gushing out of the oil pump once I remove the cap / Spring and ball?

Disappointing that the experiment did not work as envisioned.

George
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Re: Oil pump check valve.

#25

Post by RooDog »

George....
If all you are gonna do is swap out the the balls, that oil flow will be minimal. Just do it quickly, then spray the area down with brake clean, should not be much of a mess at all.... 50 wt don't flow like water....
RD....
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Re: Oil pump check valve.

#26

Post by Frankenstein »

George, thanks for picking up this thread again, just sorry the news wasn't any better. I in the interim have also installed the shaft seal in my oil pumps, with no noticeable change in sumping. I also did some experimentation with different spring pressure to address the problem. I bought some spring stock and slowly worked up in spring strength. I got to the point where I was nearing the strength of the relief valve, at which point the oil was exiting the bypass, and still seeped/sumped. I was working with a right case and pump, can of oil suspended at roughly height of mounted oil tank to simulate appropriate head.
Cotten, who no longer lives here virtually, that is, has long contended that 1) the seat is not always concentric with the access hole the spring and cap thread on, making alignment/burnishing tools not very functional, and 2) the ball mating surface needs to be narrow as possible.
His reasoning, with which I concur, is that the spring creates a finite force against the ball, irregardless of the unit of measure you choose to use, and that the wider the contact patch, the less the pressure at any particular point along that contact patch. Less pressure, increased likelihood of seepage.
The motor company finally solved the problem by moving the oil tank below the level of the oil pump with the Twin Cams. There might be some Evo motor bikes with that configuration, but I just don't keep up with that modern stuff.
I finally went with a ball valve on my 65 pan and 37ULH. Meanwhile, my 47knuck merrily sits around being mostly ignored, and quietly keeps its oil in its tank. Maybe cause I've never tried to "fix it". Go figure.
DD
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Re: Oil pump check valve.

#27

Post by RooDog »

Fellas....
Frankenstein has tried to science this problem out, and I solute him. But I can't help but wonder if there is some other pathway for the oil to bypass the check valve and allow it to flood the bottom end. I have never looked into this possibility....

My Project 1950 Panny exhibited no sumping problem,through no effort of mine. Nor my '68 Shovelhead with an early version of the $&$ standard volume pump, die cast vs their later billet version. Now then, my aftermarket 100 inch Ultima Evo engine with a Jim's pump was a really bad puker, so bad that I caught and recycled the oil it almost certainly would puke, usually after setting just a few days. I tried seating the check valve unsuccessfully. I finally was able to avoid the puking, but not solving the cause, by closing off the traditional "bottom breather" and using the Evo's head breathers. Thus no more puking, even if the bottom end is flooded, which is no way verifiable as to how much oil is down there. I do know that the oil level in my tank is much higher after the engine has run for 5-10 minutes than when it is cold. Proving that it still is sumping. And also the reason why one should never add oil to a cold engine.

Again: Never check and add oil to a cold engine.....

And the world keeps on turning....
....RooDog....
George Greer
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Re: Oil pump check valve.

#28

Post by George Greer »

Peek check ball idea didn’t work,

Seems the the VITON ball that I got from a fellow board member is working the best.

George
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