Big Fix clutch long roller bearing

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Eb74UL
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Big Fix clutch long roller bearing

#1

Post by Eb74UL »

I keep on trying to use those but cannot get myself to do it, they either seem to bind or not roll at all.
I have a few kits that I got a hold of during the years but I never actually put any in because every time I try to put it together I get a bind... and its not like its too tight... now its not turning...

Yesterday, I just put one of those kit between a used BDL 1 1/2 belt basket a new 5 stud hub and while the rollers all went in freely, they don't turn, not binding but not turning, I used pretty thick grease... when I turn the basket, with the bearing holding plate off, I can see that the bearings are not turning they are just sliding around, the fit is correct, not too tight, not too loose. I added some oil to the grease thinking it would loosen it up but no...Has anybody here been running those long roller bearing kit? How do you set them up? what type of grease do you use? Have you gotten a bind?
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Re: Big Fix clutch long roller bearing

#2

Post by RooDog »

I used the long rollers in the Super Max belt system on my Project Panny. They fit snugly. I don't know if the rolled or not. but I'm sure they drug and are the reason I didn't get a clean release with a stock style clutch and a mousetrap making finding neutral a drag.

Now you should know that those bearings only function as idlers, they actually carry no load. In gear with the clutch disengaged they simply spin, likewise when shifting gears. In neutral and the clutch engaged they are locked out. Same when in any driving gear. The only time they are loaded is if the primary is too tight with the clutch disengaged and in gear. Follow these concepts?
Modern clutches use sealed ball bearings, and these concerns no longer exist....

Probably the second best thing to do, other than a modern AM clutch, would be to go back and install the OE style staggered caged rollers just like the MoCo did for the 1958 model year....
....RooDog.....
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Re: Big Fix clutch long roller bearing

#3

Post by RooDog »

Another fix that is possible, I know because I had to do it on one of my own clutch shells, is to use an adjustable engine cylinder hone to open up the ID of the basket's race so that the rollers will have running clearance.
I had to do this for a Barnett Scorpion clutch's hub bearings because I didn't like having a hard press fit making it impossible to completely disassemble the clutch without damaging either the bearing or the basket. Now it has a light hand press fit, much like for a piston wrist pin, and the bolted on retainer prevents any chance of movement in service.....
....Best Wishes....RooDog....
Eb74UL
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Re: Big Fix clutch long roller bearing

#4

Post by Eb74UL »

Thanks RooDog,

Yes I am aware that the bearings do not carry any load and are used strictly to let the clutch basket run freely when the clutch is disengaged.

I thought the long roller would provide better "wobble" stability when the clutch is pulled, but their fit looks to be more problematic than expected, not sure how loose they should be set up. would prefer to use the stock staggered caged rollers to keep things simpler.

I am getting erratic clutch pull, goes tight and loose some, so neutral is either easy or hard to reach...

I will put that "Tamer" set up and see, I have a 5 stud hub so I cannot use the simple plastic plate with the A, B and C depths... Wish they would sell a kit for 5 stud, just put 3 discs!

I run a 1 1/2 belt, likely a BDL, stock clutch set up, I run my belt a bit looser than I would run a chain, just a bit...

Was really disappointed with the "Tamer" I got, I had a new insert machined out of steel instead of that aluminum one that comes in the kit, I had it machined with the bottom thickness down to 0.100 (instead of the 0.130 of the alum) and added a slot for the lock tab... With 0.100 bottom, the lock tab will reach the clutch hub keyway.

Instructions on the "Tamer" installation are hard to find, I know I have to put the "extra" steel plate at the bottom of the clutch basket but it seems that a few years ago the instructions were saying to leave one plate out, I think it was the last one below the "outer disc" that was supposed to be left out. I Will try to figure this out. Also it looks like some grease will have to be kept between the plastic disc and the clutch basket where it the will be running against to prevent walking, this is a pretty thin area... and will have to be looked at periodically, the grease will not stay there, it will go up to the plates.

Will see!

Eb
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Re: Big Fix clutch long roller bearing

#5

Post by RooDog »

Other than the 52 long rollers, as mentioned, are tight, I have never used any of the so called "fixes" including the 5 finger/stud scam. My '68 shovel either with a tin primary & kick only, or when finally assembled with electric start aluminum primary, has never seen the need for any of those gimmicks. However I did use a tamer device with the Super Max belt on my Panny Project. I probably would remove it if the opportunity presented itself, but I'll not go outta my to do so at this time. If a belt is running true it will not pull the basket outward. It is just like truing a belt sander only more difficult to achieve. Since Harleys are not precision machines, the MoCo told Phil Ross his primary belt drive was not suitable for their production methods back in the 1970s....

Read the whole story here:

https://supermax.net/
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Re: Big Fix clutch long roller bearing

#6

Post by RUBONE »

The "Big Fix" rollers, along with Tamers, 5 stud hubs, and many aftermarket plates, are products that sell well to those who do not understand how the components work and due to poor mechanical assembly have problems and then throw aftermarket fixes at them. Factory clutches work very well when set up and adjusted properly. Alignment is a major issue and need to be checked carefully. If misaligned the clutch drum will walk and create issues. If aligned well it just sits in a neutral location. The big fix kits remove some of the clutches ability to freely disengage and free float. Save your money, spend your time setting things up right, and enjoy your bike.
Eb74UL
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Re: Big Fix clutch long roller bearing

#7

Post by Eb74UL »

I hear you RooDog and Rubone,

The only experience I had with a belt drive was a modern BDL 3 inch set up on my panhead, the one with the sealed bearing clutch basket, almost can't go wrong with those. The only issue I had was my belt walking toward the motor when applying power. I spent hours working on the alignment of the engine and clutch pulley, both horizontal and vertical. I had it within thousandths and still the belt would walk toward the motor. I then misaligned the clutch pulley by about 20 thousandths horizontal and solved the issue... no issue with the clutch operation of course due to the sealed bearing BDL clutch basket.

Why I tell this story? because I believe that belts are not straight... when I look at that 3 inch belt, it does look like it is not perfectly straight. It could be the same with my flatty, I am running a 1 1/2, which should be less prone to move even if the belt was not straight.

I road tested the flatty for the first time a few days ago with the primary cover off to see what the belt was doing, it does not move all the way to the outside engine pulley ring when applying power but moves back toward the motor by about 1/4 to 3/8 inch when slowing down under compression. My take on this is that I could probably play with the tranny alignment to totally eliminate this movement but it is travelling sideways much less than my 3 inch belt was on the pan (belt would walk all the way toward motor) and so because it does not seem so bad and I am becoming lazy, I was trying a "fix"... with the "Tamer" or the long rollers or both!... I don't really like either but I'm just tired of messing with it and just want to ride it! If the belt would be walking wildly toward the motor I would have no choice but to mess with it.

If you tell me I should use straight edges and perfectly align my engine and clutch pulleys, sorry! I've spent hours doing this on my pan and I'd still be working on it instead of riding it. I have the exact same factory set up on my '74 superglide and it works perfect, no gimmicks needed. However the tranny is solidly aligned with the motor thru the aluminum primary and uses a chain... I really wonder how it would work with a belt? Chains are obviously more forgiving than belts to misalignment... they can't walk sideways for sure and likely do not try to pull the clutch basket either way when the clutch is released.

Eb
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Re: Big Fix clutch long roller bearing

#8

Post by nifty »

Eb74UL wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:29 pm Thanks RooDog,

Yes I am aware that the bearings do not carry any load and are used strictly to let the clutch basket run freely when the clutch is disengaged.

I thought the long roller would provide better "wobble" stability when the clutch is pulled, but their fit looks to be more problematic than expected, not sure how loose they should be set up. would prefer to use the stock staggered caged rollers to keep things simpler.

I am getting erratic clutch pull, goes tight and loose some, so neutral is either easy or hard to reach...

I will put that "Tamer" set up and see, I have a 5 stud hub so I cannot use the simple plastic plate with the A, B and C depths... Wish they would sell a kit for 5 stud, just put 3 discs!

I run a 1 1/2 belt, likely a BDL, stock clutch set up, I run my belt a bit looser than I would run a chain, just a bit...

Was really disappointed with the "Tamer" I got, I had a new insert machined out of steel instead of that aluminum one that comes in the kit, I had it machined with the bottom thickness down to 0.100 (instead of the 0.130 of the alum) and added a slot for the lock tab... With 0.100 bottom, the lock tab will reach the clutch hub keyway.

Instructions on the "Tamer" installation are hard to find, I know I have to put the "extra" steel plate at the bottom of the clutch basket but it seems that a few years ago the instructions were saying to leave one plate out, I think it was the last one below the "outer disc" that was supposed to be left out. I Will try to figure this out. Also it looks like some grease will have to be kept between the plastic disc and the clutch basket where it the will be running against to prevent walking, this is a pretty thin area... and will have to be looked at periodically, the grease will not stay there, it will go up to the plates.

Will see!
Eb
Eb74UL,
I rewrote the instructions for Tamer.
TAMER clutch basket end-float control kit;
The Tamer kit relies on an aluminium spool/cup which is fastened under mainshaft nut (cannot use tab washer, nut must be Loctited),
Original Tamer instructions & V-Twin & Zodiac Tamer knock-off instructions are vague & misleading.

Nifty's amended instructions, use with Zodiac instruction photos
Zodiac photo near top shows:

Additional steel clutch-plate with 6 narrow slots, no ball cages, 3mm thick, new steel plate inserted into basket before first friction plate goes in (except if basket is Karata don't use extra steel plate at all) Apparently this extra steel clutch plate is necessary to compensate for extra height of tamer spool/cup, without extra steel plate the release disc/pressure plate can sometimes hit tamer and clutch will never engage i.e. permanent clutch slip. CAUTION, when extra steel plate installed, ensure last steel plate of clutch pack can't fall off the end of dogs/guide blocks when clutch disengaged.

Actual Tamer basket end-float control parts: Same ID capital letters as Zodiac Tamer instruction drawing seen further down sheet.

A. Ally spool/cup with outside flange to retain B,C & D.
B. Ally backing plate/disc with 10 holes (laying inside steel clutch-plate in photo) ID should be a sliding fit on ally spool/cup.
C. “Mylatron” (Mylar) plate/plastic disc with 10 holes, ID should be a sliding fit on ally spool/cup.
D. Quantity of big shims, these only used if you have excessive endfloat, they go onto ally cup before B & C and therefore space the B&C discs inwards to reduce basket endfloat, use shim qty as required to achieve 0.010” to 0.015” end-float.
E. Quantity of small shims, these only used if you have insufficient endfloat, instruction drawing and text are wrong, the E arrow points to OD of A at inside of C which would require big shims, this would not increase end-float. The small shims in photo should actually go over mainshaft against old tab-washer-face of clutch-hub, then the ally spool/cup and therefore space the entire "Tamer" assembly outwards from clutch-hub to gain basket endfloat, use shim qty as required to achieve 0.010” to 0.015” end-float.

Tamer requires removal/deletion of the 3 conical springs and 37576-41 PLATE/bearing retainer (10 holes, rolled lip)
NOTE: 6 PLATE CLUTCHES MAY NOT WORK WITH TAMER TYPE RETAINERS, THE EXTRA STEEL PLATE REQUIRED BY TAMER, IN CONJUNCTION WITH ANOTHER EXTRA STEEL IN 6 PLATE KIT, MAY RESULT IN OUTSIDE STEEL PLATE “FALLING-OFF” THE PLATE DRIVE DOGS IN BASKET.
Original “Tamer” kits used the stock bearing cage & short staggered rollers, If “Big Fixx” type wide rollers (qty 52) are used with Tamer, the rollers will have a lot of roller-end-float. “Big Fixx” instructions state to insert all lubed rollers, then plastic disc, then reversed stock retainer, then 3 stock cone springs, CANNOT USE REVERSED STOCK RETAINER WITH “TAMER” & LONG ROLLERS, LIP WILL DESTROY MYLAR THRUST WASHER OF TAMER, CANNOT USE CONICAL SPRINGS WITH TAMER & LONG ROLLERS. Needs packer, can trim flanges off multiple 37576-41 PLATE for packing (this can get expensive only .023” thick material and repos around $24usd each), CUT THE GUTS OUT OF AN OLD CLUTCH FRICTION PLATE (OEM STEEL CORE WITH SOLID CENTRE, NO LIGHTENING HOLES), 0.085” thick, MACHINE OD 3.820”, ON TESTED OEM CLUTCH HUB THIS YIELDED 0.025” ROLLER END-FLOAT (INNER TIPS OF ROLLERS ARE INSIDE 37549-41 RIVETED FACING). AN AFTERMARKET 5 STUD CLUTCH HUB WAS TESTED, .085” DISC WAS TOO THICK, NEGATIVE END-FLOAT, COULD NOT GET CIRCLIPS INTO GROOVES. HAD TO THIN DOWN DISC.
MAKE NEW RETAINER FROM STEEL SHEET (1.964” x 3.820” x 0.069” THICK, 10 x 9mm holes at 3.062” PCD), ADJUST THICKNESS AS REQUIRED
37549-41 riveted facing will be subject to grease from LONG rollers, as is stock set-up.

All above works on a hotrod evo with 4 speed ridden hard

Original “Tamer” kits were expensive because they included: 5 finger clutch hub, 5 finger spring retainer, 5 adjuster nuts plus a free-floating nylatron disc in lieu of the riveted 37549-41 original clutch hub “friction” riveted facing, Tamer adjustable clutch pressure plate (5 stud) 15-084

IMO The main problem some have with long rollers is variations in diameters of AM clutch baskets and AM clutch hubs, factory roller clearance is .002"-.003", but you shouldn't have to force rollers in. The long rollers do reduce clutch basket droop/flop when clutch disengaged.

I agree primary sprocket alignment is very important and must be addressed regardless of everything else, its a fact of life.

There is an AM Ramjett knockoff specifically made for 5 stud hubs, only uses 2 circlips and you only get 2 shots at reducing end float of basket, but they still work. but if you have the tamer run it with above caveats/instructions

NOTE: 6 PLATE CLUTCH PACKS WILL NOT WORK WITH RAMJETT TYPE RETAINERS, THE THINNER FRICTION MATERIAL CAUSES THE CENTRE OF INSIDE FRICTION PLATE TO BOTTOM OUT AGAINST THE RAMJETT. (CAN MAKE IT WORK BY STUFFING A STEEL PLATE IN FIRST AND USING 2 FRICTION PLATES TOGETHER, BUT THIS TURNS A 6 PLATE CLUTCH BACK INTO A 5.

Any kind of reduction in basket end float will result in better plate separation, which reduces tendency for clutch to drag

Nifty
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Re: Big Fix clutch long roller bearing

#9

Post by Eb74UL »

Nifty,

Thanks for the info.

I will first try with only the Tamer in, with the factory roller bearing set up (staggered). As I posted above, I had a Tamer "spool" made out of steel instead of the aluminum one they supply... Honestly, I cannot imagine putting a "soft" aluminum piece between the clutch hub nut and the clutch hub, and this without a locktab... I know locktabs don't do miracles but loctite doesn't either... My steel "Spool" also has provision for the locktab, so I just feel safer this way. I must be wrong and there must be quite a few people running the Tamer with the aluminum spool but I want to solve problems not create another one, what is $60 more?

In your instructions for the Tamer, you mention discarding the 3 springs and the bearing retainer plate, are you saying everything would be put back together without these parts? I think you are indicating this in the case of the long roller application right?

When using the stock staggered bearings, rough measurement indicates to me that the springs would likely fit between the Mylar disc and the bearing plate... I could also use circlips to hold the bearing retainer plate but there could be some looseness in there. What do you think?

I agree that if the long rollers are used with the Tamer then the whole retaining set up needs to be figured out, I think your idea of using a pressure plate is good. I am not really interested in the long roller... unless I would have heard a lot of people saying they've done it without any issues like "put them in and forget about it"... but it does not seem to be the case here.

As for the RAM Jett, not only I could not get myself to put that in with only 2 circlips, even worst, the 2 circlips would be located mainly to only one side of the clutch hub... Why not sell a kit for 5 fingers? you would only need 2 disc at most. Heck, I could switch to a 3 finger hub if I wanted to run that, but not a 5 for sure...

Thanks for your input!

Eb
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Re: Big Fix clutch long roller bearing

#10

Post by nifty »

Zodiac tamer.pdf
(687.8 KiB) Downloaded 27 times
If you use OE staggered rollers with Tamer use Tamer retainer.
Yes discard the small OE cone springs and OE retainer (this is mentioned in V-Twin instructions) Tamer won't work with springs or OE retainer
items B & C in Zodiac picture act as retainer and limit end-float (adjusted with big shims to flange on ally cup

Yes, Tamer with long rollers requires more re-work or you can try running it with lots of roller end float, I never have.
Measure your OE rollers, they lose diameter faster than hubs & baskets wear, measure any new rollers you buy, many are undersize.
As much as you don't like the Tamer ally spool and 2 clip Ramjett for 5 stud, they actually work.

Provided your steel spool replicates all essential Tamer dimensions, it might work with tab washer, if tang of tabwasher can reach keyway of hub.
However, properly applied Loctite holds the world together and does not fail.
As for fit and forget, nothing much for old harleys is fit and forget, everything needs to be checked and properly set up, if you are not prepared to do that, then live with poor operation, or buy a Honda
Nifty
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Re: Big Fix clutch long roller bearing

#11

Post by Mongrel505558 »

RooDog wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:23 pm Another fix that is possible, I know because I had to do it on one of my own clutch shells, is to use an adjustable engine cylinder hone to open up the ID of the basket's race so that the rollers will have running clearance.
I had to do this for a Barnett Scorpion clutch's hub bearings because I didn't like having a hard press fit making it impossible to completely disassemble the clutch without damaging either the bearing or the basket. Now it has a light hand press fit, much like for a piston wrist pin, and the bolted on retainer prevents any chance of movement in service.....
....Best Wishes....RooDog....
I did that once when I tried the long rollers for the pan clutch and it worked out well. You have to open the basket surface up just enough to get all the rollers to fit in. Any more and they can get cocked sideways. I ended up switching to a BDL open belt setup, but for other reasons. I put my '68 back together with the short caged rollers and it works fine, too.
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Re: Big Fix clutch long roller bearing

#12

Post by Andygears »

It seems the “Fix” is a bigger problem than the stock setup that was used for over 40 years virtually unchanged. Keep it all away from me, my clutch works fine, stock & properly adjusted.

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Re: Big Fix clutch long roller bearing - The end

#13

Post by Eb74UL »

Well, this is a project I started working on about 4 years ago, on and off...

I had forgotten that I had the clutch basket honed to fit the long rollers with a 3 finger hub...

I had the 3 finger hub with the long rollers installed and the clutch was not working to my liking (basically, I find that a 3 finger hub does not release as evenly as a 5 finger, but I expect that many will disagree, and to be honest, I think I should have bought new springs) and so I decided to order a 5 finger hub. Then I tried to install the 5 finger with the log rollers but it was not fitting well and so installed it with the factory staggered rollers. As some can guess now, the staggered rollers were then likely too loose a fit because the basket had been honed some, and so the clutch was not working very well and so I bought the Tamer.

Then, when going through my notes, I remembered that the clutch basket had been honed to fit the long rollers with the 3 finger hub, and so I reinstalled the 3 finger hub with the long rollers and the Tamer and new clutch springs (The long ones). Works perfect!

I installed 2 plastic discs with circlips on the hub to hold the rollers in place in the basket.

Now remains to see how long this will last but this is a low mileage bike. Thanks to all for the replies and inputs. Now you know the mistake was mine!

Eb
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