Assembling the crank
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Re: Assembling the crank
Coming along nicely..
Short list:
Sifton replica stock cam. Part Number: 10-8176
Andrews J. Part #: 212030
S&S H-grind service cam, Part Number: 330-0165
I'm understanding a '77 on gear set is needed. I have 3 pinions to choose from.
They are listed in order of value, cheapest 1st.
What are the considerations?
Didn't know Sifton brand was available any more? Why does the HD "H" cam have different duration specs front to rear?
Decided to buy a new cam (and rollers). Wanting something mild. Hydraulic.Short list:
Sifton replica stock cam. Part Number: 10-8176
Andrews J. Part #: 212030
S&S H-grind service cam, Part Number: 330-0165
I'm understanding a '77 on gear set is needed. I have 3 pinions to choose from.
They are listed in order of value, cheapest 1st.
What are the considerations?
Didn't know Sifton brand was available any more? Why does the HD "H" cam have different duration specs front to rear?
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Re: Assembling the crank
Cams are much like ice cream flavors, every one has their favorites. I would run an Andrews #2 in that engine because of its stock low compression, 7-8.5:1. It is of relatively high lift, and short duration, just what a LC engine likes. The dissimilar timing of the FLH probably has more to do with producing that "to the dump" Potato-Potato sound than most anything else, I can live without that feature, but some love it. I see no point in running the stock FLH/Victory cam unless you already have one on hand, or there is is big price difference. The cost involved will be long forgotten as the miles are racked up in the future down the road.....
Because you are piecing this engine together the cam and pinion gears only have to match each other, and not necessarily be correct for the year model the numbers suggest, but for the future it would be best if they did.
But BEWARE: Get rid of that plastic breather gear, and find a steel one. The plastic ones are notorious for destroying the bore they operate in, and the engine case in general....
....RooDog....
Because you are piecing this engine together the cam and pinion gears only have to match each other, and not necessarily be correct for the year model the numbers suggest, but for the future it would be best if they did.
But BEWARE: Get rid of that plastic breather gear, and find a steel one. The plastic ones are notorious for destroying the bore they operate in, and the engine case in general....
....RooDog....
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Re: Assembling the crank
Thanks for those thoughts.
I have 3 pinion gears and 3+ cam gears to choose from plus a new cam will come with its' own gear, so am likely to find something to my liking for fit.
Basically I plan to assemble the cone with cam in place and test how much backlash exists. The cam should have endplay and be free to slide back and forth with no binding from pinion. I suppose I thought 1 or 2 thou backlash maybe..
My existing H cam has 0.0015" wear on the big journal plus the lobes are peppered with tiny shrapnel dings, not worn through hardening though.
Been studying hard out on cams. I've learnt a bit and remembered some I'd forgotten. These days am favoring an engine that's well mannered, easy starting, etc.
Actually I'm not so keen on Andrews cams. They don't seem to be nearly as good as OEM was. Might be co-incidence but they are often worn through lobe hardening?
OK, so isn't Sifton cams made in China? Justpanhead state USA made. Must be a mistake? These are cheapest, about $155.
Andrews cams about $180+. S&S about $220+
Andrews #2 is listed as not a "bolt-in" according to brochure. Appears to need head work because of valve lift limitation, especially true '81 -'82years.
I have 3 pinion gears and 3+ cam gears to choose from plus a new cam will come with its' own gear, so am likely to find something to my liking for fit.
Basically I plan to assemble the cone with cam in place and test how much backlash exists. The cam should have endplay and be free to slide back and forth with no binding from pinion. I suppose I thought 1 or 2 thou backlash maybe..
My existing H cam has 0.0015" wear on the big journal plus the lobes are peppered with tiny shrapnel dings, not worn through hardening though.
Been studying hard out on cams. I've learnt a bit and remembered some I'd forgotten. These days am favoring an engine that's well mannered, easy starting, etc.
Actually I'm not so keen on Andrews cams. They don't seem to be nearly as good as OEM was. Might be co-incidence but they are often worn through lobe hardening?
OK, so isn't Sifton cams made in China? Justpanhead state USA made. Must be a mistake? These are cheapest, about $155.
Andrews cams about $180+. S&S about $220+
Andrews #2 is listed as not a "bolt-in" according to brochure. Appears to need head work because of valve lift limitation, especially true '81 -'82years.
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Re: Assembling the crank
According to the Andrews poop sheet I have in hand the lift for their #2 is .490" in a SH and set up with .512" spring travel, but since you have the heads off, they will be coming apart anyway, no? It would be an easy task to check and adjust any clearance issues. Do you know what year your heads are, since this bike seems to be a Frankenstein? Early 1980s SH valves & guides were turds and should be investigated before being put back into service.
One never knows the quality of any product bought new, time will tell if the item is well made, or not, that is why warranties are offered concerning "materials and workmanship", only a used part has a proven track record, and all machines run on used parts.....
....RooDog....
One never knows the quality of any product bought new, time will tell if the item is well made, or not, that is why warranties are offered concerning "materials and workmanship", only a used part has a proven track record, and all machines run on used parts.....
....RooDog....
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Re: Assembling the crank
I recently put an S&S H cam in my pan. The specs match the original factory H-cam. I've noticed a slight drop in performance from the Andrews J-grind I had in there before. These days I'm going for reliability over high performance. I thought I'd give it a try. It is easy starting and does make a lot of torque, and to be honest, since I installed it last fall I haven't had a chance to really get on it much with winter and all.
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Re: Assembling the crank
For some reason, I was under the impression Andrews made the cams for $&$. It would make sense, as the specialized machinery and equipment needed makes it reasonable to sub out that work, and then mark it up for no effort involved profits. But I could be wrong.
$&$ doesn't make a lot of their stuff like pistons, and foundry work,so why build their own cams?
....RooDog....
$&$ doesn't make a lot of their stuff like pistons, and foundry work,so why build their own cams?
....RooDog....
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Re: Assembling the crank
Could very well be. I didn't even know they had this cam. Figured it was an Andrews product. I have an original factory "H" cam hanging around, but it's pitted through the hardened surface in some parts.RooDog wrote: ↑Mon Apr 04, 2022 5:27 pm For some reason, I was under the impression Andrews made the cams for $&$. It would make sense, as the specialized machinery and equipment needed makes it reasonable to sub out that work, and then mark it up for no effort involved profits. But I could be wrong.
$&$ doesn't make a lot of their stuff like pistons, and foundry work,so why build their own cams?
....RooDog....
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Re: Assembling the crank
On my Panny Project I had an OE FLH, Victory, cam that was well worn out. I replaced it with an Andrews #1. I also had an Andy A, but chose not to use it, and after some wheeling & dealing on eBay I came up with the #1 for free.....Mongrel505558 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:38 pmCould very well be. I didn't even know they had this cam. Figured it was an Andrews product. I have an original factory "H" cam hanging around, but it's pitted through the hardened surface in some parts.RooDog wrote: ↑Mon Apr 04, 2022 5:27 pm For some reason, I was under the impression Andrews made the cams for $&$. It would make sense, as the specialized machinery and equipment needed makes it reasonable to sub out that work, and then mark it up for no effort involved profits. But I could be wrong.
$&$ doesn't make a lot of their stuff like pistons, and foundry work,so why build their own cams?
....RooDog....
The 74" engine has new, stock B&S, w/FLH, advertised CR of 8.5, Jugs & pistons from Teddy's V-Twin. Topped off with a Bendix carbby, it starts and runs well....
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Re: Assembling the crank
Don't know how true but I heard that in the past Andrews supplied the gears to S&S along with the cams until S&S bought and installed their own cam machines. S&S also started sourcing gears elsewhere.
Business is business, but what could be the case is the shaft blanks are made in the same place, then each outfit adds their own grind profiles and hardening treatments.
Still pondering over which cam maker & profile to go with. Favoring some sort of bolt-in hydraulic.
Stator needs new screws. Old ones look like gutter bolts plus they are on the short side. My thought is to get allenhead capscrews and use Loctite blue.
Mocked up belt drive. Suddenly realized all I don't know about these. Next I'll look in Knowledge base for tips like alignment, shims?, tension,.. Counted belt teeth. 144T x 2". There's 2 small holes. Pondering about getting a new one. Forgotten already but I think this takes BDL belts. There's no marking because the previous tensioner roller rubbed anything it had off. Just noticed, that's probably one of the holes to the extreme right.
Would like to know the difference between 24582-77A FLH cam and 25523-77 FX cam. The claim is USA made Siftons, replica type V-twin mfg.
Business is business, but what could be the case is the shaft blanks are made in the same place, then each outfit adds their own grind profiles and hardening treatments.
Still pondering over which cam maker & profile to go with. Favoring some sort of bolt-in hydraulic.
Stator needs new screws. Old ones look like gutter bolts plus they are on the short side. My thought is to get allenhead capscrews and use Loctite blue.
Mocked up belt drive. Suddenly realized all I don't know about these. Next I'll look in Knowledge base for tips like alignment, shims?, tension,.. Counted belt teeth. 144T x 2". There's 2 small holes. Pondering about getting a new one. Forgotten already but I think this takes BDL belts. There's no marking because the previous tensioner roller rubbed anything it had off. Just noticed, that's probably one of the holes to the extreme right.
Would like to know the difference between 24582-77A FLH cam and 25523-77 FX cam. The claim is USA made Siftons, replica type V-twin mfg.
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Re: Assembling the crank
“Stator needs new screws. Old ones look like gutter bolts plus they are on the short side. My thought is to get allenhead capscrews and use Loctite blue.”
Harley sells, or used to, a set of stator screws that have Locktite on the threads for one time use. It’s been a while but I bought a set when mine loosened and 2 snapped off. It made a funny noise when you shut the bike off- like a double, multiple click when the engine coasted to a stop. Finding the source of the noise was interesting! Drilling out the old studs was fun: a very small bit thru the stud, not into case beneath, then a slightly larger left handed bit, spun the broken piece right out when it hit the bottom of the bolt.
Andygears
Harley sells, or used to, a set of stator screws that have Locktite on the threads for one time use. It’s been a while but I bought a set when mine loosened and 2 snapped off. It made a funny noise when you shut the bike off- like a double, multiple click when the engine coasted to a stop. Finding the source of the noise was interesting! Drilling out the old studs was fun: a very small bit thru the stud, not into case beneath, then a slightly larger left handed bit, spun the broken piece right out when it hit the bottom of the bolt.
Andygears
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Re: Assembling the crank
An old timer H-D mechanic I know told me a trick he used to do to get the correct primary belt tension. He used to stuff a rag in between the belt and front pulley and rotate it to pull the rag in. Lock down the tranny with the rag in and then rotate the pulley to get the rag out. Do this after using a long straightedge to align the two pulleys. Also, you need to align the pulleys in both the horizontal and vertical planes. For the second alignment you may have to shim the tranny mounting bolt under the kicker cover. I've tried the rag trick and it's worked out for me. I've also done this successfully without using any rag. However you do this task, you may end up spending more time on it than you expected. You need to start the bike and watch the behavior of the belt. If it wants to walk at all you need to shut down, loosen the tranny nuts and bolt and start again. Repeat until you get it right.
Jim
Jim