Kicker bumper plate dilemma

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nifty
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Kicker bumper plate dilemma

#1

Post by nifty »

Strange kicker dilemma:

OE 4 speed trans circa 70-71, (-65 casting number)

Trans case is drilled & tapped for kicker bumper plate, but had no bumper installed.

Trans had an OE Pan / early Shovel straight kick lever, which returned to dead on 12 o’clock/straight up & down. Kicker functioned perfectly.

Trans had an OE late type (round stop peg) 24T kicker gear installed.

Not all new, but no damage or excessive clearances anywhere at kicker.

Trans case has a shallow witness mark from round peg of 24T KG, so obviously been run like this for a while, but no idea how long.

I checked and round stop peg is in same location as early 24T KG with integral stop.

I installed a new 33353-36 bumper, but there was .080” clearance between bent end of bumper and aluminum case abutment.

When kicker assembled with bumper and .080” gap, lever only returned to 11 o’clock and cam of 24T KG was only partially separating tips of ratchet teeth.

With bumper removed again, kicker back to 12 o’clock and full separation restored, kicker works perfectly.

I considered doing some blacksmithing on the bumper, but that would only lose the .080”, bumper is .120” thick, so figured even with a perfectly fitting bumper, kicker would still return to well before 12 o’clock, and I'd still have separation issues.

So despite parts books calling out -36 bumper, do some 65up not actually have bumper?

I've seen lots of bumpers, but never this situation.

Or are there other things happening?

Weird parts of which I am not aware?

A MoCo screw-up with machining of up-stop abutment and positions of threaded holes??

Nifty
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Andygears
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Re: Kicker bumper plate dilemma

#2

Post by Andygears »

Only guess I can think of is: What year was kicker optional first started? ‘67 ?? And maybe the factory thought “No kicker, no bumper”. And left the dealer to retrofit it if needed.

Andygears
nifty
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Re: Kicker bumper plate dilemma

#3

Post by nifty »

Thanks Andy,
Could be something like that, but makes me wonder why the screw holes are drilled & tapped in wrong place?
And aluminum abutment is in right place for correct kicker function, sans Bumper.
Unless screw holes are an owner mod/screw-up?
Screw holes are neatly done and correct for era 1/4" 24, so I assumed they were Factory, maybe not?
.
Hopefully someone will have a definitive answer.
Anyone got an instruction sheet or TSB re retrofitting kickstart to late 60's- early 70's BT??

Nifty
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Re: Kicker bumper plate dilemma

#4

Post by nifty »

Thought I found another clue, but all I found was more confusion

61-78 parts book lists 33353-36 Bumper as 41- 69.
Ah ha methinks!

Then I found
41-84 parts book lists 33353-78 BUMPER PLATE, starter crank as 41-69
But as the pics demonstrate, the bent end of the -78 bumper has greater distance to the first screw hole and maybe screw spacing is wider? (compared to the -36), so, on the distance to bent end alone, the -78 would be even worse for 70-71 application.

And 41-84 parts book doesn't even mention 33353-36 Bumper.

A Zillion AM sellers claim 33353-36 Bumper is for 36-E78, which until this particular trans, I used to agree with.
So where does the truth lie?

Nifty
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Re: Kicker bumper plate dilemma

#5

Post by RooDog »

Nifty, perhaps you are on to something there.
I replaced the bumper plate & screws on my early Panhead tranny with no issues using Tedd's V-Twin parts. I'm glad to know that there are different numbered pieces that cause these problems, now we know the truth.....

Tedd's V-Twin lists the two bumper plates:
V2 # 17-0407, H-D # 33353-36, 1941-75.
V2 # 17-0408, H-D # 33353-78, 1978-84....

The oil deflector also changed, 1941-79, and 1980-84, as did most everything in the 4-speed gear box....

Don't trust the H-D parts manuals as being comprehensive as they often omit items that have long been obsoleted even if for the applications supposedly covered in the manual's listed years. Like the lack of Knucklehead parts in the 1941-78 cat.....
Thank You.....RooDog....
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Re: Kicker bumper plate dilemma

#6

Post by nifty »

RooDog wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:13 pm now we know the truth.....

Tedd's V-Twin lists the two bumper plates:
V2 # 17-0407, H-D # 33353-36, 1941-75.
V2 # 17-0408, H-D # 33353-78, 1978-84....

...RooDog....
RooDog,
not quite the whole truth...

Not wanting to be picky but, Tedd website lists -36 as fitting:
FX 1971-1977
UL 1937-1948
EL 1936-1940
FL 1941-1977
https://www2.vtwinmfg.com/bumper-plate- ... arter.html

The 70-71 trans case in question is at odds with up to 77 fitment and specific 71-77 FX fitment of 33353-36
while 33353-78 only fits from unknown start date to approx late 79
Neither bumper will work with 70-71 trans case in question.
80up used a new mainshaft ballrace retainer plate with extended leg which has bent end used in lieu of bumper plate.

Seems to me there are the 2 different steel "Bumper" up-stops, one era of main case with only aluminum abutment as up-stop and the 80up steel retainer plate which doubles as KG up-stop.

Nifty
Last edited by nifty on Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
RooDog
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Re: Kicker bumper plate dilemma

#7

Post by RooDog »

Well it sounds like some finagling and fabrication is in order to make these parts play nice together, eh?
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Re: Kicker bumper plate dilemma

#8

Post by nifty »

Yeah, I'm thinking for only occasional kicker use on electric start bike I'll leave the bare aluminum case as the up-stop.
Kick only 71 FX would be a different story.
Still don't know if this trans case is a screw-up, or are all same era cases this way?
Nifty
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Re: Kicker bumper plate dilemma

#9

Post by RooDog »

Say again what the year model and casting number is for your case?
No particular reason for me other than just general knowledge.
I, personally, am out of the 4-speed business, but I run into people with questions who think I may have the answer, which I often don't....
But I still do have a complete tranny from my 68 FL with some Andrews internals I need to sell some day....
....RooDog....
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Re: Kicker bumper plate dilemma

#10

Post by nifty »

RooDog,

Ratchet lid electric start case has -65 casting number and supplementary ID number makes it 70-71 see attachment
No idea what the "2" signifies.

Any chance you could post a pic of your 68 bumper arrangement, please?

Nifty
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RooDog
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Re: Kicker bumper plate dilemma

#11

Post by RooDog »

Yes, I can do that, will post pics tomorrow.....
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Re: Kicker bumper plate dilemma

#12

Post by RooDog »

nifty wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:23 am RooDog,

Ratchet lid electric start case has -65 casting number and supplementary ID number makes it 70-71 see attachment
No idea what the "2" signifies.

Any chance you could post a pic of your 68 bumper arrangement, please?

Nifty
Nifty....
Here are some pic of my retired tranny from my '68 FL.....
The ware on the bumper should be from back before I even suspected I should be replacing it....
Most of that damage , I assume, was done before I replaced the kicker cover with the heavier duty AM cover as there are no corresponding witness marks on the kicker gear, but I could be wrong. I haven't kicked that thing in 30 years.....
....RooDog....
DSC00041.JPG
DSC00042.JPG
The bumper looks to be at about 5:00 o'clock
DSC00043.JPG
DSC00044.JPG
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nifty
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Re: Kicker bumper plate dilemma

#13

Post by nifty »

Thank You RooDog,

Well, after looking at your 68 pics, seems to make this 70-71 trans another step closer to having a screw-up somewhere.

I'll scratch head some more.

Cheers

Nifty
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Re: Kicker bumper plate dilemma

#14

Post by RooDog »

Nifty....
Here's an electric start only tranny case on eBay with a lot of good pictures. The casting number is -65, there is no bumper installed.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353732975970?_ ... %3A2563228

Just more to look at.....RooDog....
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Re: Kicker bumper plate dilemma

#15

Post by nifty »

Thanks again RooDog
I snaffled a couple of those ebay pics
BTW did your 68 originally have a foot clutch with that arm?
Ex Police bike?
Nifty
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