Cam vs. carb

[ES175]

Description: Andrews - Linkert

Post by ES175 on Dec 6, 2004, 8:20pm

I am planning on installing an Andrews "J" grind, mild street, cam into my 56 pan engine. I was discussing this with a local old timer and he tells me that my Linkert carb will not set up right and that I should run a stock cam or plan on installing a different cam. Opinions?

Post by panomania on Dec 6, 2004, 9:25pm

not sure about the linkert but a put a j grind in my 48 and it ran like crap! after a day of j-grind, i pulled it out and put a a-grind back in and it performs circles around the j-grind. by the way, im using a s&s carb. it may be all different with your carb set up.

Post by Billy on Dec 7, 2004, 12:31am

ES175-
My post should get you a response from Cotten...
He is The Linkert Specialist...
The local guy IMO was telling you, the Linkert is limited in range for tuning up for a 'hotter cam'.

The "J" is so mild you won't realize you changed the cam
The specs are not very much different than stock...

Post by DuoDave on Dec 7, 2004, 4:02am

I have an Andrews J grind cam and stock Linkert carb on my Pan. it runs just fine with this setup.

Post by Cotten on Dec 7, 2004, 7:54am

If a cam cannot be set up because of a particular carb, then it must be mighty peculiar in its demands!
I am not aware of any carburetion requirement that a properly-set up Linkert cannot accommodate, including W.F.O.

Post by Plain on Dec 7, 2004, 10:06am

I too would disagree with your local old timer. The Linkert will accomodate an Andrews "J" grind nicely. Any carb is going to need to be dialed in or tweaked when changing anything in the induction system.

What sometimes gets lost to anyone not of a certain age is that back in the day the Linkert was used on many racing engines. And Linkerts were modified to the max. Boring out to paper thin and honing the butterfly plate to trim ET's off maximum effort drag engines. When the S&S came out in '68 it pretty well spelled the end of the Linkert as a racing carb. Not so much because it was a quantum leap better, but because it was a great deal easier to bolt on an S&S than to modify a Linkert for maximum effort engines.

If you are still using the stock HD air cleaner element in your setup you will get better performance by throwing it in the trash and using a better flowing element.

Where Andrews is concerned, in my opinion, the only cam to really not consider or stay away from is the "F" grind. The "F" grind is an "A" grind with delayed timing, developed for the time when gas went to hell. Some people like it, but for me it is a dog of a cam. Andrews no longer makes the "F" grind but you can still find it retailed. After leaving the "J" or the "1" have a care and make sure that your heads are set up for correct spring travel. Without carefull checking a lot of cams advertised as "bolt in" will lead you to grief. Since the "J" has .425 lift in a Pan there is generally not a problem. Were I you I would also mic the cam and the installed pinion drive gear to make sure that you have the correct pinion to accomodate the Andrews.

Post by ES175 on Dec 7, 2004, 9:22pm

Thanks for the info. I used to run Harley's and Indians back in the 60's and early 70's and as I recall the carbs were very simple and easy to adjust. I didn't have the money to buy fancy cams so I never had the opportunity to try different setups. Because I need a new cam I will go with the "J" grind. Our local wizard has built a rig to check for valve interference and when he builds the bottom end for me I will get him to check the cam. I am looking forward to building this beast up and it will be just like the choppers I had back in the early days, foot clutch, jockey shift, rigid frame, a springer, and a clangy panhead. I still wish I had my '47 Chief with 37,000 original miles that I sold for $600.00 in 1971 after riding it for 3 years and by the way it still had the wooden plug I made up on the road to replace the one that fell out of the carb, when I sold it. I need a new pinion gear due to the old one being spalled and I ordered a "red" as I believe the new cam will have a "red" gear, but I will check the backlash anyway.

Post by Plain on Dec 8, 2004, 7:42am

ES175:

You have me worried about your pinion. MIC your cam! I have a new Andrews "A" grind here on my bench to go in a Pan. It mics 2.7694" over .105 pins. That would mean a "White" pinion (1.4465" - 1.4460" over .105 pins). If your Andrews "J" grind mics the same, and I suspect that it will - then the Red pinion is going to be way too big and will whine, bind, and things are going to start chewing themselves up. Here is the skinny on Panhead cam gears and pinions:

Panhead Pinion Gear Sizes

Pinion Gear Size Cam Gear Size
Over .105” Pins Over .105” Pins

Orange 1.4490 - 1.4485 2.7665 - 2.7670
Black 1.4485 - 1.4480 2.7670 - 2.7675
Red 1.4480 - 1.4475 2.7675 - 2.7680
Blue 1.4475 - 1.4470 2.7680 - 2.7685
Green 1.4470 - 1.4465 2.7685 - 2.7690
White 1.4465 - 1.4460 2.7690 - 2.7695
Brown 1.4460 - 1.4455 2.7695 - 2.7700
Yellow 1.4455 - 1.4450 2.7700 - 2.7705

Putting the micrometer on your new cam could save you a lot of grief down the road.

Adios-----Plain

The table is acting really strange. Numbers moving all over the place. First numbers are pinion range for color. Second numbers are cam range for that pinion gear. Technology! Bah!

Post by King on Dec 8, 2004, 11:57am

Hi Plain

I have an Andrews #1 I want to install in my 51FL. First problem I found is that it will not fit into my crankcase cam gear bushing (solid bronze) as the “one size fits all” is designed for the post 57 roller bushing. No big deal, I just have to find a good lathe guy with a tool post grinder and remove .002.
But your post brings up a larger question, matching the cam gear to the pinion gear. I’m not sure how to interpret your table. Are the dimensions for each gear the max with 0.105 pins installed between teeth? Thanks for bringing this topic up I wasn’t aware there were such a wide range of gear sizes.

King

Post by ES175 on Dec 8, 2004, 11:58am

Plain, thanks for the heads up on the cam gear. I will order the cam, mic it, then order the required pinion gear. I do not need a torn up cam, geartrain, crankcase bore, or gear cover bore.

Post by Plain on Dec 8, 2004, 3:56pm

ES175:

Now you are cooking. It is a lot easier to mic the cam, then order the correct pinion gear than to spend another eighty bucks for a second pinion and have one as a paper weight.

King:

If memory serves me correct, and it rarely does, '48 - '57 engines had the brass bushing in the right-hand case for the cam. '58 up ran the Torrington needle bearing in the right-hand case. You can ream the bushing to fit the Andrews cam. The second more expensive option is to weld the hole, face it off and rebore to accept the needle bearing. That would be a job for Headhog. I much prefer the needle bearing to the bushing, but that is just me.
The measurement of the cam is a range of 0.0005". Two 0.105" pins. When you count teeth on the pinion and the cam, it is going to make you crazy, because one has an odd number of teeth. Take a straight edge and draw a line grove to grove through the center of the gear. Pins in the two grooves. Mic on the outside of the pins. Put a rubber band on the pins and you will save some sanity as holding a gear, or cam, two pins and getting the mic on them correctly without the infernal pins scampering off is a LPITA.
In the case of my Andrews "A" cam, my measurement across the two pins was 2.7694", which would mean that I need to install it with a White pinion. If you look at the chart, any cam that miced from 2.7690" to 2.7695 would use the White pinion. If your cam miced 2.7695 you could use either the White or the Brown. That gets to be a harder call. I generally go on the smaller size. A pinion a smidgeon to small for the cam will click. That is an aggravation. A pinion a smidgeon to big will whine, put side pressure on the other gears and things will start to eat themselves up. Sometimes, depending on all of the other things in the engine, you end up in the prior example installing the brown and there is just too much play. End up going to the white and it works correctly. I typically mic the pinion in any engine that I am tearing down as if there is any paint on it how does one tell the correct color? Hot 60 wt and years do strange things to colors. Micrometers do not lie. Does this make sense or have I confused you?

Plain

Post by King on Dec 9, 2004, 7:29am

Hi Plain

Many thanks for the chart and describing the "drill" for matching the gears. Now when I get the gearbox open I know exactly what to to. I'm sure doing it right will save me a lot of grief down the road.
By the way do you have any experience with the Andrews #1? I picked it as it looked about right to give me a bit more mid-range performance without messing with the heads.

King

PS: Your'e right on the years for the bronze and roller bearing bushings the change over was 1957.

Post by King on Dec 9, 2004, 7:33am

Plain

I forgot to ask. Any advice on a good supplier for the pinion gears?

Thanks,

King

Post by Plain on Dec 9, 2004, 12:49pm

King:

At the risk of preaching to the choir, but more so that someone coming along later does not try to use partial information. The most important thing here is actually measuring the backlash when the cam is installed. The table just helps to make a more educated selection.
Backlash numbers are a matter of choice. Some positive backlash is necessary. As you get to 0.002” or more then you will hear the click. In your case you can zero in quickly by checking the backlash prior to removing your cam. If the backlash is correct then when you mic your stock cam, and then mic the new cam, the difference between the two either added or subtracted to your pinion size will give you the new correct pinion size to get the same backlash with the new cam. I guess that you are aware that Andrews makes cams with one size gear smaller, and one size gear larger than standard. If you already have the “1” cam then you don’t have the option of getting it with a different gear. Andrews cams and gear id are the same as most stock HD. If everything in your gear case is running correctly, but the new cam gear would require a different pinion, you can press the gear off the stock cam and the Andrews and press the stock cam gear on the new Andrews. It is not for the timid, and takes some care, but is doable and will sometimes save you some money and a compromise.
My experience with the Andrews “1” is limited. I think that as gas continues to go to hell we will see that grind used more. It should only be used with compression ratios of 7.5 to 8.0. If you have higher than 8.0 compression the “1” will really cause the engine to ping. On the engines where it has been used it provided a LOT more balls and power in the low and midrange. I think that you will feel a substantial difference.
The “1” SHOULD install with no head problems or modifications, but that depends on what may have been done to the heads prior to your owning the machine. Springs, followers, valves. You can end up with a problem. Check carefully after the installation before building a fire under her. And make damn sure that you put the cam in and turn it to insure that the rear intake lobe has sufficient clearance with the inner portion of the case. Some cases will have to be slightly ground in that area. Nothing worse than a spiffy new cam lobe scraping a case on initial turn over. It is downhill from there.
I try to not stray too far from nosparts (nosparts.com) for pinions. My Nosparts catalog shows that Tom has the full range of pinions for ’54 – ’77 engines, but zip for ’36 – ’53. My catalog is not very current. Message Tom and see if he has them. Taiwan Tedd shows a full range of ’36 – 53, but my experience with TT has not been good. Jims makes pinions for ’54 – ’77. Not sure about earlier models.

Adios-----Plain

Post by ES175 on Dec 9, 2004, 8:54pm

Before I buy a cam, any comments on the suitability of the Andrews "A" grind in a stock pan? I was going to buy a "J" grind but apparently the "A" will give better performance with no mods required, although intereference will be checked anyway. Thanks

Post by Plain on Dec 10, 2004, 12:58pm

ES175:

This is really a difficult question to answer. Just discussing a cam, period, and whether it is suitable is a good way to start fights in bars. There are far too many other variables that play into the choice. Carb, lifters, pushrods, intake maiifold, pistons, exhaust system, riding style. Anytime that you fiddle with one part of the system it has implications on the rest of the system.
If your ’56 is an FL, then a stock HD FLH cam is going to give you a considerable boost. If you have been running an FLH cam, then as Billy the Kid said earlier, you will not see a big change by using the Andrews “J” grind. I think that you will notice a difference, but not a significant difference. You need to consider all aspects. Cams can change compression ratios, among other things. A ’56 Pan with an FL cam will have a compression ratio of around 7.25. Same engine with an FLH cam will have a compression ratio of around 8.00
The “A” grind is a damn decent cam set up in the proper system. If your riding style is cruising around town and putting on the highway, the “J” might be a better cam for you. The “A” grind is considerably more aggressive and “gets on the cam” at a higher RPM. You will lose a little on the lower end with regard to a “J”, but gain more in the mid and high range. You need to start with how you intend to ride and build from there.

“…but apparently the “A” will give better performance with no mods required….” Maybe, but be careful. With the Panhead rocker you will have a .470 lift with the “A”. You need to carefully check that the rear lobe does have case clearance. You really, really need to check your heads. Coil bind or piston to valve clearance can come into play. A lot depends on what may have been done to the engine prior to your getting it. The old adage, all stock engines are not equal.
Not trying to scare you off from the “A”. I personally really like that cam in a basically stock Pan. Others will curse it. Consider all of the variables.

Adios-----Plain

Post by ES175 on Dec 10, 2004, 7:20pm

I think I will stick with the "J" grind. The bike will be a 60's style chopper, therefore comparatively light. I plan on installing an Andrews 2.44:1 low gear set, so low end torque will be important. The bike will be used for just puttin' around, or as we used to say, profiling.

Post by Cotten on Dec 10, 2004, 7:37pm

The only disadvantage of a FLH "Victory" cam is that they are stiff to kick for some of us geezers. Otherwise, it is the most practical cam design for universal street use, just as if the Factory knew what they were doing!?!.
Before Sifton evaporated, they had a 440 that really worked great,. But the barroom favorite: "A" brand never ever earned my respect, particularly for a Panhead.

Post by ES175 on Dec 10, 2004, 7:45pm

Cotton, I thought I saw a longer kicker arm in one of the many catalogues I have. They advertised it for high compression engines. Perhaps they should also call it "geezer special" and they would sell a whack of them. I'm not sweating it though, I have about 40 pounds more than I had in the old days.

Post by Billy on Dec 11, 2004, 1:38am

There is a 1" longer kicker arm made for Strokers &/or hi-Comp. motors. The added inch approximates to 50 lbs. of extra ass on the kicker.

Post by Plain on Dec 11, 2004, 9:11am

Cotton while we disagree on the “A” I am with you on the FLH cam. And the Sifton cams were as good as they got. Old Tom really had it dialed in. There ought to be a special place in hell reserved for the people that have done such damage to the Sifton name and reputation.
“Geezer Special.” A marketing stroke of genius! I may have to avail myself of one. I am a stroker freak, and alas, in my dotage I seem to have lost my ass and am getting increasingly thin. Somewhat embarrassing to give a kicker arm you best shot and it does not move. That or forget to retard the swine and get draped over the handlebars – in the parking lot – in front of an onlooking finely crafted young lass. The laughter is still echoing in my ears. Bah!

[58flh]

I can attest to both the #1 & J grinds!----The J is basically a stock-cam with .012 more lift & a slight diff. in duration!--They start easy RUN-GOOD & fuel mileage has been good ,according to the customers that I put the J cams in!--Pros---A smidge of better lowend 2 to 3 shift is longer because your just enjoying that TOURQUE!-(That what PANS were meant for!-LOCOMOTIVE TOURQUE!)-not hi-RPM HORSEPOWER!--To get that you would have to wind the motor so hi!-That it blew-up 5000RPMs ago!---#1,A-CAM---VERY NICE (LOCOMOTIVE CAM!) I have installed that grind in 2-pans & 1 pan-shovel!--They all LOVE the GRIND!--However the Panshovel was replaced with a (A-Grind)-& It ran way-better as the Shovels can flow more efficiently!--SO for a stock 74 PAN the ANDREWS J, #1 & A grinds are all proven cams that work!--Also I like to add that all cam installations should be done with a degreewheel!--You will be surprised on how much an A can be off its mark for optimum performance!-(I had one that was 2 teeth!)--Even stock cams are off by some!--THE WHEEL DONT LIE!--Check for yourself!--As far as the motor bering!-Your better off with the BRONZE BUSHING!-The TORRINGTON NEEDLE BERINGS just add another GRENADE into the mix!- That was a step in reverse in 58!-I put a Bushing in my 58flh & have been running without worries for 20+yrs.--just my 2 on the experience with these grinds!--Oh yea I did not install the F or BH grinds in pan motors ,But a good Buddy has used -(TRIED THEM) & they were quickly removed!--I had just finished a 51fl rebuild & used a CRANE-296A-Grind!--GREAT CAM--The throttle response is awesome & the range is from 1800 to 6000RPM, now I never took the motor that hi up in the range !-I taped a tach to the bike & as far as I could tell I took her to 4200RPM!--& the cam did nothing but PULLLL! THe whole time!--Installing this cam requires headwork good springs-(S&S) & some dremmel work for clearence from the cam lobes!--A min. of .020 clearence should be the # to go for off the gear & case web!----Hope this helps to guys looking for an evertday cruiser without hassels & hard starting!-(all bikes were 1-hot kickers & gone!).---RICHIE