Original Oil Pump or S&S

[51elpanchop]

Hello, I'm a first time poster to this great forum. I have been lurking for awhile and have learned a great deal from all the various posts.

I have a "51" el Pan on a "58" flh Swingarm frame that I have totally rebuilt from the ground up. The whole project started in 2001 when the motor went south on me. I took the motor to the best motorhead in my area. The motor has been finished since 04 but the builder told me that if I let him start the bike for the 1st time, time it, and follow his break in proceedure then he would warranty the build for me. Can't ask for more then that IMO.

The motor is 84cubes w/ std heads that have the external oilers. The builder also rebuilt my oil pump and stands by the fact that its all that motor needs. I like the original look. I just put the first 180 miles on the Old Girl and its running great. Starts easy....The guy that built my motor rides a "47" Knuck and builds all the old Ironheads around here. A few of my friends think I'm crazy for not putting a S&S oil pump on the Pan. The builder says he will not have any problems taking my money to install the S&S oil pump but stands by the original oil pump. I trust the builder of course but I would like to hear some opinions on this.

BTW...I pulled off the tins and am getting a flame job on the bike so I will have her back for good weather. I will post some pics when I get her back together...

Rob

[Cotten]

$pending money to booger it up with a modern pump would be 'crazy'.

Cast iron pumps out-last aluminum pumps five to one, maybe more.

Tell your few friends who insist upon modernizing they have antique envy.

....Cotten

[awander]

I agree that the original pump should work fine.

If you DO decide that you want an S&S, I have one with only about 300 miles on it, that I would trade for your original pump.

I took it off my '52(and installed the pump from my '64 on the '52) because I wanted the original look.

Now I need another original fro my '64

[Ripley/Fla]

I just got my motor back from one of the heavily touted rebuiders on this forum. He convinced me (possibly correctly) that since my bike is an AMCA 5 pointer I should run the S and S pump. What I instantly saw was that all my fittings no longer exist and I'm going to work to hook up the stock lines and oil pump switch. Awander- Any tips? Cotten, I will hook up a pressure guage and baseline the pressure on the pump when new at different RPM's. Coincidently, I called him to return my two pumps that I provided for the fittings I will still need.

[awander]

Ripley:

Sorry, no tips.

The OTHER reason I changed back to stock on my '52 was that it was almost impossible to get the S&S installed without the top fitting on the pump leaking.

The S&S pump requires an elbow that enters through the top of the pump body(instead of straight in from the rear) in order to use the stock steel lines. Getting this NPT fitting to the right angle, while having it stay tight and leakfree, was too much for my mediocre plumbing skills.

The S&S is a nice piece of machinery, and I am sure it is nice to have lots of oil pressure, but for me the stock pump is teh way to go.

[51elpanchop]

Thanks for the replys. Like I said, the bike is running great and I like the oroiginal look so I'm sticking with what I got and whats working. Hell, The cases and the oil pump are the only thing left thats original on the motor anyway. This has been a long wait. I had to put the Pan on the back burner a few times w/ raising kids and a money pit of a house. I always had a running scoot but theres nothing like blasting down the road on the Pan....

[awander]

theres nothing like blasting down the road on the Pan....

Yup, I agree...course, I've only ever owned pans....

[fourthgear]

Org. oil pump all it needs , maybe ,maybe not, you can start a new thread on why so many upper ends on the older HD's only lasted for so little miles before needing a rebuild ( if you look at todays miles per rebuild). You will not see oil sumping with an S&S oil pump(if oil system properly maintained ) ,cast org. out lasting an S&S maybe ,maybe not, I have an org. that stopped working and do not trust to put back in service. Sure I guess you could rebuild it & take the chance it will work , a possibility.I just do not trust it , for myself its a no brainer,every thing has a service life ,no matter what its made of .

I have an S&S on my 48 motor & it works fine , good oil pressure all the time , positively better than the OEM unit,been running for 15K miles.
If you want to keep it org., use the oem type pump, they work good enough.

As far as the line set ,they make fittings that can work with the S&S . I have s/s braided to steel lines( came with the bike when I bought her and they have been working fine ) , I have to get to my PC to get a photo. Just my two .

[Ripley/Fla]

Awander, I don't know if you'll get this, but I'll trade you when my parts return. I have the pump that came with the bike (56), another complete spare that I bought on Ebay, and a 3rd, also Ebay that is nice but some mope broke off the chain oiler screw. That would have to be EDM'd out. I'd send you all three and you could see which one is the best. All are complete with gears, keys, shafts, and snap rings (which you would probably pitch anyway.) I bought them as they were complete, not just the body. Contact me at tannerac@gmail.com if you are interested.

[steinauge]

If the pump body is undamaged internally(around the sides of the gears) and the gear protrusion is correct the pump will work.I believe what the other gentelmen mean is that the iron pump body is much more tolerant of metal mush than the aluminum pump body.

[Jack_Hester]

Rob -

An original pump is capable of providing too much pressure and volume. That's why the regulator valve dumps the excess. And, like Cotten says, the old iron pump will far outlast the later aluminum ones.

Jack

[fourthgear]

Yes , the pressure regulator regulates the pump pressure ,but probably only when oil is cold and at high highway speeds(or RPM's) . Why do you think all those idiot lights flicker @ idle . You won't see that when an S&S oil pump is used & the system is changed over to the later oiling system path.
There is always the saying that its just needs flow & not really pressure , well in my experiance with all types of bearings , they all need some pressure too & that bearing doesn't care if its @ idle or not. If doesn't have enough oil ,it will not like it for long.

When its 90+ degrees out there & you got a fifty + year old pump , well ,its your call & your motor.
I know ever one wants to keep these machines as org. as possible ,and rightly so , but to me there are limits & I happen to have a lot of money invested in my machines and I think I would be foolish to let the motor wear prematurely because of just, looks , but thats just me.

[awander]

I think I would be foolish to let the motor wear prematurely because of just, looks

You write that as if it is proven that the old pumps WIL let the motor wear prematurely. I submitthat you may THINK that is the case(you may even be correct- ) but I haven't seen anything close to proof of it.

By all means, do what makes you happy. I intend to do the same. Good ridin'!

[Jack_Hester]

the pressure regulator regulates the pump pressure ,but probably only when oil is cold and at high highway speeds(or RPM's) . Why do you think all those idiot lights flicker @ idle . You won't see that when an S&S oil pump is used & the system is changed over to the later oiling system path.

My oil of choice for my '59 has been synthetic, since the early 80's. 20W-50. You would think that 20W-50 would be too light in viscosity, if following the old mindset of single-weight grades, only. I to subscribed to this mindset in the 70's and up until I switched entirely to synthetics. HD-75 and HD-105 primarily, with the occasional experiment with aviation grades of 60W and 70W. I run a pressure gauge, 'T'ed in with my oil pressure switch.

I will say something about my pressure regulator spring. I don't think it is original to the pump. But, it is original to the bike, since I purchased it in '74 (Army seperation pay). It does not appear to be stretched, and comparing with an OEM spring, it is the same length. However, I do not know of any aftermarket springs available specifically for these pumps, back then. Maybe some creative individual found higher tension springs of the same length.

Anyway, my pump has always provided better than 10 psig at a fast idle. And, 18 to 20 psig at highway speeds (hot oil). I learned in the late 60's of the woes of a 'potato, potato, potato' idle. So, I set my engines to idle at a moderate to fast, when warmed up. No 'potatoes' for my engines.

My point is, aftermarket pumps are really not necessary as replacements over OEM, unless you just can't find an OEM. Haven't found that to be the case, yet. And, when I look to replacement, I look to the iron-bodied replicas as a substitute. Though I have yet to try one, as the OEM's are still plentiful.

As always, just a personal preference from personal experience.

Jack

[Cotten]

Stop me if I have already told this story,.... (or at least link me to it so I can cut'n'paste....)

One hot summer morning my toolbox came open and dropped my toolbag somewhere on the sidesteets in my shop's neighborhood.

Having already ridden from the big city, the 86" '65 was warm. Inspite of a glaring oil light (geez I was used to it.. ), I began lugging around corners and idling down streets for about fortyfive minutes searching in vain. The light never went out the whole exercise.

I figured I was within pushing distance of the shop, and the motor would probably make noise (again) if there was a starvation problem.

The old warhorse didn't even get hot.

There is no practical way to monitor how your motor is oiling.

You can have high pressure and restricted flow, or you may have low pressure with over-flow. (More is not always better: what you put in, you also gotta be able to get back out.)

Pressure and flow will both change with temperature.
Pressure and flow will both change with motor speed.
Pressure and flow will both change with different lubricants.
Even if you set up a controlled environment test cell and ran hundreds of runs and choked all of these variables through an algorithmic sieve, the numbers still wouldn't mean much to the next bike.

Harley-Davidson OHV's became a legend for durability somehow.
Check out Indian pumps sometime, and you will gain a whole new appreciation for H-D bulletproof design.

I totally disagree with Fourthgear's assertion that "you can start a new thread on why so many upper ends on the older HD's only lasted for so little miles before needing a rebuild ( if you look at todays miles per rebuild)."

The bad era was the '70 and '80s, not the '50s and '60s when the machines were produced.
And of course things are better a generation later; Modern materials and machine tecnology can be thanked for that.
But oilpumps have damn little to do with the top end, except when they flood it. Overhead Oilers were certainly capable of that with a stock pump!

The Factory went down a few blind alleys with the pump design over the years, but it is usually the one assembly in a basket that you can count on.

....Cotten