Trans oil
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Jack_Hester
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Re: Trans oil
If the tranny has finished it's break-in, I run 75W-90 gear lube. The charts say that it's equivalent to 20W-50 engine oil. But, I would say from pouring, it is more like a 30W. I use Amsoil gear lube, which has a blue transparent color. If you are breaking in a new build, I would recommend 20W-50 syn engine oil for the first season. Then, switch to the 75W-90 next season.
Jack
Jack
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Cotten
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Re: Trans oil
There is a very important reason why the Service Manual instructs to use the same grade of oil in the motor as the transmission.
There is only one way for the lube to enter the main drive gear rollers, and that is to seep past the thrustwasher. There is no outlet, so it must seep back out.
If you use excessively heavy oil, it cannot properly supply or purge itself.
More is not always better, particularly when it comes to the 'weight' of lubricants.
Another problem commonly found with transmissions is water contamination.
Changing it often is more than prudent. Using an expensive lube that wasn't even intended for the OHV transmission is a waste of money.
Beware also that a lot of modern oils are not compatible with bronze bushings.
....Cotten
There is only one way for the lube to enter the main drive gear rollers, and that is to seep past the thrustwasher. There is no outlet, so it must seep back out.
If you use excessively heavy oil, it cannot properly supply or purge itself.
More is not always better, particularly when it comes to the 'weight' of lubricants.
Another problem commonly found with transmissions is water contamination.
Changing it often is more than prudent. Using an expensive lube that wasn't even intended for the OHV transmission is a waste of money.
Beware also that a lot of modern oils are not compatible with bronze bushings.
....Cotten
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VT
Re: Trans oil
Harley-Davidson® says use Formula+® in all transmissions 1936 to present. That's what I use.
It goes on the ground anyways
Last edited by VT on Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Panacea
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Re: Trans oil
VT, that's this year, because they recently came out with it, before that they said use their new synthetic in engine ,tranny, and primary. I may just try it though, I put some in my late model primary and noticed an improvement in my grabby clutch. It must be more slippery than the regular primary fluid. Mike
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FlatHeadSix
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Re: Trans oil
We've kicked this around before and I have always believed that the guys that engineered the stuff to begin with had the best advice. Like Cotten (and the original manuals) said, straight weight dead dinosaur oil. Run the same stuff in the engine and the transmission. Gear lube is for truck transmissions and differentials, not old motorcycles!
The synthetics may be great, but they may also be too slick. All those roller bearings should roll, not skate. I personally think that some of the modern hi tech stuff may be too slippery for our older designs and cause problems down the road.
Like John mentioned, you don't have to pay the "Harley Tax" to get straight 50 or 60 weight oil. I have been running Valvoline in everything for years, and its cheaper by the case. Ask your local NAPA guy, if they don't have it on the shelf they can order it for you.
jmho
mike
The synthetics may be great, but they may also be too slick. All those roller bearings should roll, not skate. I personally think that some of the modern hi tech stuff may be too slippery for our older designs and cause problems down the road.
Like John mentioned, you don't have to pay the "Harley Tax" to get straight 50 or 60 weight oil. I have been running Valvoline in everything for years, and its cheaper by the case. Ask your local NAPA guy, if they don't have it on the shelf they can order it for you.
jmho
mike
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Jack_Hester
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Re: Trans oil
Bearing skate damage can happen in just a matter of minutes. And, not because the oil is too slick. A few years back, a local wrench was trying to figure out why the needle rollers in a 45" 3-speed were getting flat spots on them, just as soon as his customer rode the bike out of the shop. This went on for literally a month. It was a freshly rebuild tranny, with new bearing rollers and bushings. He stated that the tranny had 60W H-D (dino) oil in it, just like the engine. Two things to take in consideration. It was the cooler end of Fall, and the customer drove like he was late to his lottery winnings. Damaged happened in a very short time away from his shop. No other damage, except to the needle rollers. Gave them a quart of 20W-50 Amsoil to put in, being of a lighter viscosity, but with the protection of at least a 50W. I had to listen to all the myths about synthetics, to which I pointed out that they hadn't solved the problem, why not give it a try. Didn't hear back for several weeks. When I did hear, yes the customer was riding, with no other issues. And, all they did was use the 20W-50 along with another set of new rollers.
My real point is not about synthetics. My point is about the oil being too heavy for the manner in which his customer was driving. Hard and fast (as much as a 45 can do) on a new build. 60W is just fine for the tranny. So is 50W. But, with tight clearances, you either have to do a warmup and drive like you really appreciated your machine. Or, you go with a lighter viscosity single-weight or a multi-weight lube comparable in protection, to try and compensate for when proper break-in is not observed. Single-weight dino oils will thin out at far lower temps than synthetics. Not a bad thing. Engineers understood what took place with them, when they were originally chosen.
Anyway, like I stated before, gear lubes use a different set of numbers for their viscosities. Larger numbers than with engine oils. So, when you look at the viscosity of gear lube, don't compare those numbers with engine lube.
Here is the same issue that I commented on, over on another vintage bike forum:
http://www.caimag.com/forum/showthread.php?t=460&page=2
It posts the links to the charts where you can compare viscosities of engine and gear lubes.
Jack
P.S. - And, as I've stated a number of times, I've been using 20W-50 synthetics in my old machines, since the early 80's. Along with 75W-90 synthetic gear lube in the trannys. The engine oil goes in first, for the break-in period. The gear lube goes in the next season.
My real point is not about synthetics. My point is about the oil being too heavy for the manner in which his customer was driving. Hard and fast (as much as a 45 can do) on a new build. 60W is just fine for the tranny. So is 50W. But, with tight clearances, you either have to do a warmup and drive like you really appreciated your machine. Or, you go with a lighter viscosity single-weight or a multi-weight lube comparable in protection, to try and compensate for when proper break-in is not observed. Single-weight dino oils will thin out at far lower temps than synthetics. Not a bad thing. Engineers understood what took place with them, when they were originally chosen.
Anyway, like I stated before, gear lubes use a different set of numbers for their viscosities. Larger numbers than with engine oils. So, when you look at the viscosity of gear lube, don't compare those numbers with engine lube.
Here is the same issue that I commented on, over on another vintage bike forum:
http://www.caimag.com/forum/showthread.php?t=460&page=2
It posts the links to the charts where you can compare viscosities of engine and gear lubes.
Jack
P.S. - And, as I've stated a number of times, I've been using 20W-50 synthetics in my old machines, since the early 80's. Along with 75W-90 synthetic gear lube in the trannys. The engine oil goes in first, for the break-in period. The gear lube goes in the next season.
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Cotten
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Re: Trans oil
Jack!
Time and science marches on, so I am certain that lubes have, and shall continue to improve.
But your anecdote raises a big question, and leaves another explanation open.
The immediate and obvious question is: How did all of the hundreds of thousands of 45's survive before synths?
Assuming the skill level of 'local wrenches' and bat-out-of-Hell riders has remained somewhat constant, and indeed just adding your quart of elixir cured the problem, (and it was not just a matter of the hardware finally making its own clearances after consuming so much metal...) I would like to pose another possibility.
Just like our OHV's, the rollers are 'glued' into place with grease for assembly.
Like oils, greases have changed.
Local auto supply chain stores no longer offer greases that are not spec'd for disc brake wheel assemblies. The stuff doesn't melt. And it is not miscible with dino oils, because disc brake greases are themselves, synthetic.
I submit that it is most likely that your synth was able to wash out a super-goober assembly lube.
Petrolatum may have prevented the grief from the start.
....Cotten
Time and science marches on, so I am certain that lubes have, and shall continue to improve.
But your anecdote raises a big question, and leaves another explanation open.
The immediate and obvious question is: How did all of the hundreds of thousands of 45's survive before synths?
Assuming the skill level of 'local wrenches' and bat-out-of-Hell riders has remained somewhat constant, and indeed just adding your quart of elixir cured the problem, (and it was not just a matter of the hardware finally making its own clearances after consuming so much metal...) I would like to pose another possibility.
Just like our OHV's, the rollers are 'glued' into place with grease for assembly.
Like oils, greases have changed.
Local auto supply chain stores no longer offer greases that are not spec'd for disc brake wheel assemblies. The stuff doesn't melt. And it is not miscible with dino oils, because disc brake greases are themselves, synthetic.
I submit that it is most likely that your synth was able to wash out a super-goober assembly lube.
Petrolatum may have prevented the grief from the start.
....Cotten
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Jack_Hester
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Re: Trans oil
Cotten -
Not knocking dino oil. I'm actually covering two topics here. Proper/improper break-in. And, comparisons between viscosities of engine oil and gear lube. Probably should keep the two topics separate, to keep the confusion factor down. Plus, my explanation was not intended to mean that the synthetics cured the roller problem. The lighter viscosity oil (20W-50) was the fix, as the driver refused to change, stating that he 'broke them in like he rode them'. Syn oil was all that I had on hand, to offer as another step to try. They didn't bother to call me back, as the problem became too obvious.
The comparison between engine and gear lubes is so that people can see that they are not putting a killer heavy weight oil in their transmissions, when they put the larger numbered gear lubes in. With the 75W-90, they are actually putting in a lighter viscosity than OEM spec, but with the protection of a heavier viscosity.
As to the greases, I've just recently found a syn grease that is spec'd to act like the older dino greases. Meaning that it melts just like the ones you were talking about. I bought a small case of it, just for use in my bike wheel bearings. It actually works as a good assembly lube, as it washes right out with oil.
As to the lube in the tranny melting the assembly lube out, the shop doesn't use any, stating that the tranny lube should be enough. So the rollers were wet with 60W, each time they failed. Some of them were shaped in almost a 'V' pattern, while most had half the roller flattened.
I haven't used Petrolatum (petroleum jelly, for those about to ask the obvious) in quite a few years, for assembly. But, I have no qualms about using it, and will do so, if I'm ever in the position to need it. Excellent assembly lube. I'm just in the habit of using my syn lubes for that.
Jack
Not knocking dino oil. I'm actually covering two topics here. Proper/improper break-in. And, comparisons between viscosities of engine oil and gear lube. Probably should keep the two topics separate, to keep the confusion factor down. Plus, my explanation was not intended to mean that the synthetics cured the roller problem. The lighter viscosity oil (20W-50) was the fix, as the driver refused to change, stating that he 'broke them in like he rode them'. Syn oil was all that I had on hand, to offer as another step to try. They didn't bother to call me back, as the problem became too obvious.
The comparison between engine and gear lubes is so that people can see that they are not putting a killer heavy weight oil in their transmissions, when they put the larger numbered gear lubes in. With the 75W-90, they are actually putting in a lighter viscosity than OEM spec, but with the protection of a heavier viscosity.
As to the greases, I've just recently found a syn grease that is spec'd to act like the older dino greases. Meaning that it melts just like the ones you were talking about. I bought a small case of it, just for use in my bike wheel bearings. It actually works as a good assembly lube, as it washes right out with oil.
As to the lube in the tranny melting the assembly lube out, the shop doesn't use any, stating that the tranny lube should be enough. So the rollers were wet with 60W, each time they failed. Some of them were shaped in almost a 'V' pattern, while most had half the roller flattened.
I haven't used Petrolatum (petroleum jelly, for those about to ask the obvious) in quite a few years, for assembly. But, I have no qualms about using it, and will do so, if I'm ever in the position to need it. Excellent assembly lube. I'm just in the habit of using my syn lubes for that.
Jack
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fourthgear
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Re: Trans oil
Bearing skating because of certian lubracants "IS A MYTH ", just ask Timken bearings , this wifes tale has been going on for a long time . The scientific facts prove thats its other factors that cause this phonomenon and has nothing to do with specific lubracant used.
You will find that the new HD tranny fluid closely resembles a Syn. gear lub , not a engine oil. It is not just a fad that HD is going to Syn..
Those HD engineers back in the forties only knew the technology and knowlage of the day , can't fault them about that , but better lubracants are now available that WILL get better service life from your vintage michine , weather you want to use them is up to you .
Don't come on here, that they knew best about this or that in the NOW . I do not think they ment for these machines to last this long and they probably wouldn't if it wasn't for people like US.
As far as this working or not working with this and that , well I too have been using Syn. Right after break in and have tens of thousands of miles , with no problems. The only reason I use dino oil for break in is for washing out the systems with inexpensive oil , other wise I would be using it from the get go.
You people need to get over it , that HD was the all knowing about all things mechanical and what they need for parts or lubracation. If thats what you believe in , good for you , I have no problem with it at all , but when you start talking that this is the only way the HD GODS will permit , how or what to use , get a life!
I know , but I just can't listen to some of the ranting here some times , I guess I'm just not one of those true believers!( HD knows best , HD is all you can use for a part , Hd engineered the best , bla bla bla )And yes I own three HD's , but not because they are the best all the time , I don't care for the others , They just don't turn me on . I also know I don't candy coat any thing I say , I'm not a POLITIAN.
You will find that the new HD tranny fluid closely resembles a Syn. gear lub , not a engine oil. It is not just a fad that HD is going to Syn..
Those HD engineers back in the forties only knew the technology and knowlage of the day , can't fault them about that , but better lubracants are now available that WILL get better service life from your vintage michine , weather you want to use them is up to you .
Don't come on here, that they knew best about this or that in the NOW . I do not think they ment for these machines to last this long and they probably wouldn't if it wasn't for people like US.
As far as this working or not working with this and that , well I too have been using Syn. Right after break in and have tens of thousands of miles , with no problems. The only reason I use dino oil for break in is for washing out the systems with inexpensive oil , other wise I would be using it from the get go.
You people need to get over it , that HD was the all knowing about all things mechanical and what they need for parts or lubracation. If thats what you believe in , good for you , I have no problem with it at all , but when you start talking that this is the only way the HD GODS will permit , how or what to use , get a life!
I know , but I just can't listen to some of the ranting here some times , I guess I'm just not one of those true believers!( HD knows best , HD is all you can use for a part , Hd engineered the best , bla bla bla )And yes I own three HD's , but not because they are the best all the time , I don't care for the others , They just don't turn me on . I also know I don't candy coat any thing I say , I'm not a POLITIAN.
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Cotten
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Re: Trans oil
FourthGear!
Before we go any farther, please tell me whose side I am on?
Jack!
Please take your modern disc bearing grease and put a propane torch to it. It will burn as fast as it melts.
If you need a vintage dino grease to compare, I can send you a sample of several varieties.
Dino grease melts like butter.
Modern synth disc brake grease will not melt so easily, because it would be deadly if it did.
...Cotten
Before we go any farther, please tell me whose side I am on?
Jack!
Please take your modern disc bearing grease and put a propane torch to it. It will burn as fast as it melts.
If you need a vintage dino grease to compare, I can send you a sample of several varieties.
Dino grease melts like butter.
Modern synth disc brake grease will not melt so easily, because it would be deadly if it did.
...Cotten
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Jack_Hester
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1964 pan
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Re: Trans oil
William H.,William, Arthur and Walter D. must be spinning in there graves right now. Put what it says in the Bible in the tranny gear case. To much information some times is not a good thing.I wish it was 1964, again.IMHO.
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Guest
Re: Trans oil
if it was me, i wouldnt go to any "hd" dealership now days unless you want some orange overpriced engineer boots. those guys are fresh out of that expensive school down the street from my house and frankly have a lot to learn. best bet... the old man that has a shack in his backyard and knows the older bikes or the shop thats been in business for years and years. nothing takes the place of the experienced hands. motor oil for the transmission.