oil problems

Lubrication System (oil feed pump and scavenger pump, reservoir, filter, and lines)
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hjans
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oil problems

#1

Post by hjans »

Hi there
I ( still) have a problem with oil blown out of the engine. After a couple of days/weeks not riding ( yes, a shame!) about a pint/liter is blown out of the primairy housing. Checked the ball in the oil pump. ( Removing ball is easy with a silicon tube with a external/internal diameter of about 9/6 mm, press on the ball and suck at the other end, this way you dont need a magnet). Ball and seat seems ok. Even under pressure no oil leaks down through this ball-valve.
What other causes can explain oil leaking into the engine ??

Thanks for thinking along
FlatHeadSix
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#2

Post by FlatHeadSix »

hjans,

there are 2 places that oil can get through the pump when the engine is not running. The check valve, which you have already inspected, and the bypass or relief valve.

The check valve is a ball under a light weight spring held in only by the cap screw. The bypass on early pumps used the same ball but a heavier spring adjusted by a separate tension screw under the cap, late model pumps used a plunger in place of the ball. The bypass (relief) valves usually were not as likely to leak and cause sumping as the check valves, but they could and sometimes did.

mike
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#3

Post by Cotten »

The seat cut into the casting for the sump ball check is very difficult to inspect, especially when installed.

I would suggest arbitrarily burnishing the seat, and hoping for the best.

....Cotten
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#4

Post by doc308 »

Is the relief valve located under the horizontal capscrew on the earlier oil pumps?
Cotten
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#5

Post by Cotten »

Doc308!

Yes, the pressure relief valve is horizontal, and the gravity feed ball-check is vertical.

The ball check controls static sumping (motor not running); a stuck-open relief valve could cause dynamic sumping (while the machine is running) by flooding the gearcase.

I have never encountered a malfunctioning relief valve.
The Factory apparently thought there was need for improvement, so in '53 they introduced weird balls with long tails on them to be centered by the springs. Around '54 they went back to a plain ball for the feed check, and introduced a cup valve for the relief.

....Cotten
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#6

Post by FlatHeadSix »

Check the post in the flathead forum for the 45 oil feed pump. the pumps are different but they share internal parts and the principle is the same. the cast iron pump body is subject to the affects of moisture and other things that cause pitting and erosion of the seat that the ball fits against and requires swaging or burnishing to get the ball to seal reliably again.

this is a picture of a flathead pump, the burnisher on the left will work in the check valve (vertical assembly) of the panhead pump.

As mentioned earlier, you can get replacements just about anywhere, the balls are available in sacks of 100 for about 10 bucks, and they are used everywhere on the bike. Same as the fork neck bearings, check the part number index in the back of the old spare parts catalog.

Mike
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hjans
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#7

Post by hjans »

Yesterday had a ride on the bike. Was afraid that again a pint of oil would be spilled, so didn't start on the driveway but on the street. And to my surprise : no oil !! Took her for a ride of about 60 km, and no oil leaked away ! Guess last time was the oil that leaked away before inspecting the vball, and inspecting removed dirt or something.
Have to see if this lasts.
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#8

Post by George Greer »

Hi Mike....

On the burnisher tool you have posted here....

The one I made is a little different..

Yours has is threaded into the adapter and the ball soldered on.

Mine is just a bolt thru the adapter and the ball soldered on.

Does yours get torqued down to slighlty deform the valve seat??

I just put hand pressure and a little toothpaste on the ball to burnish the seat..

What's best???

George in Germany
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#9

Post by FlatHeadSix »

George,

The single burnisher is one of Cotten's designs, the double ended one is from Steve at Resurrection Cycle. A burnisher should actually "move" the metal surface of the seat, deforming, or reforming, it to match the contour of the ball. They should be torqued down with enough force to achieve this. The whole idea is to avoid putting any contaminates in the pump like lapping or grinding compound.

mike
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#10

Post by Guest »

So Mike what would you use as a lapping compound inplace of the others. Wla use of tooth paste is intresting but I don't see it having enough abrasive to do much. I mean it don't get your teeth clean. Would the use of lapping compound have much afect as long as the oil pump was removed and could cleaned properly. We used to soak cylinders in Tide over night to remove the compound. Bob
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#11

Post by PanPal »

You say it leaked out while sitting. Transmissions have been known to leak out of the primary covers too. It sounds like it's better anyway.
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#12

Post by Cotten »

What Mike was trying to point out is that a burnisher does not use any abrasive or compound.

Just the pressure of torquing the ball into the seat at ~15 ft/lbs two or three times does the trick, if the seat hasn't been damaged by coarse lapping or beating with a drift.

This can be be done right through the oil that is welling up from the tank head pressure: You don't even have to drain the tank!

...Cotten
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#13

Post by Guest »

Cool stuff. Bob
hjans
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#14

Post by hjans »

When i look at the burnishers, shown here on the pictures, it seems that with a couple of them, the ball seems not exactly in the middle of the bolt.
So, in other words, turning the bolt results in the ball moving from left to right.
That way i can imagine that the seat rather is de-formed then re-formed. Further, when turning the bolt, this effect could even get worse.
Wouldn't it be better to put in a loose ball and than apply pressure ?
Of course then you get the problem of getting the "burnishing-ball"out.
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#15

Post by FlatHeadSix »

hjans,

The balls are actually dead center on the bolts, the silver solder is not evenly distributed on the sides of the ball and give the illusion that they are not centered. You could also do it with a loose ball as long as the end of the bolt was "cupped" so that it kept the ball centered, but I thing the soldered ball is more effective.

Like Cotten said above, these will work even with oil still in the pump and tank as long as there is no trash on the seat. When you start the process you can sort of "feel" the initial engagement of the ball against the seat by turning it down slowly by hand. If it feels gritty when the ball starts to contact the seat you should stop right there and clean out the pump before proceding.

And, like Cotten said, NO LAPPING COMPOUND! You wouldn't pour sand in your oil tank, why would you put it in your pump?

mike
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