1961 Pan Head, no radiator! Milky brown, just like with a blown head gasket in a car.
Why or how do I get water in my oil. It has a fresh oil change, I keep it in the garage (warm) I just don't get it.
Any idea's ?????
Water in the oil bag
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docscully
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Cotten
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Doc!
Combustion makes water.
(Hydrocarbons split to combine with oxygen to form C02 and H20)
Traditionally, a motor that is run for only short hops in cool weather will build up moisture in the oil. (Even when it is not visible, it forms destructive acids.)
If your oiltank doesn't get hot, you aren't boiling the water out.
In very cold weather, the water can turn to slush and plug the feed line.
Water can come from other places: I don't know exactly how it can get in from riding in the rain, but a remember a friend whose stroker Chubble was blowing a plume of steam out of the breather after we finished ~30 miles in a sprinkle. The oil looked like milk.
It is a similar mystery to me about transmissions that manifest water, without combustion.
....Cotten
Combustion makes water.
(Hydrocarbons split to combine with oxygen to form C02 and H20)
Traditionally, a motor that is run for only short hops in cool weather will build up moisture in the oil. (Even when it is not visible, it forms destructive acids.)
If your oiltank doesn't get hot, you aren't boiling the water out.
In very cold weather, the water can turn to slush and plug the feed line.
Water can come from other places: I don't know exactly how it can get in from riding in the rain, but a remember a friend whose stroker Chubble was blowing a plume of steam out of the breather after we finished ~30 miles in a sprinkle. The oil looked like milk.
It is a similar mystery to me about transmissions that manifest water, without combustion.
....Cotten
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fourthgear
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Are you sure its water ? Drain some and let it settle in a sealed see through container (glass , plastic ) and see how it settles out , if its water it will show its self at the bottom of the container . If its some thing else it may also show its self by just separating.
Any one know what fuel will do to change oil color , if any ?
Water in the Tranny comes for condensation ,its vented to the atmosphere and that air contains moisture and depending on the dew point temp., humidity and what temp. the tranny cools after use , can condense inside .
Any one know what fuel will do to change oil color , if any ?
Water in the Tranny comes for condensation ,its vented to the atmosphere and that air contains moisture and depending on the dew point temp., humidity and what temp. the tranny cools after use , can condense inside .
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Cotten
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Or the oil can be gently warmed to see if it darkens (loses volume, weight) as the water vaporizes out of it.
And FourthGear!
It is pretty hard to imagine that much of water in about a quart of air. I have opened them to find "milk" (and rust, of course).
Anal pressurewashing is the most likely culprit I can think of, as barn-find boxes are commonly rust-less inside. It is not a historical problem, so much as a modern one.
...Cotten
And FourthGear!
It is pretty hard to imagine that much of water in about a quart of air. I have opened them to find "milk" (and rust, of course).
Anal pressurewashing is the most likely culprit I can think of, as barn-find boxes are commonly rust-less inside. It is not a historical problem, so much as a modern one.
...Cotten
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FlatHeadSix
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This thread kind of ties in with the copper oil line thread.
As Cotten mentioned, one of the products of combustion is water. As fourthgear mentioned, some of us ride where the humidity levels are always high. I'm going to add another source; I firmly believe that today's fuel has a higher level of entrained moisture, more true if you consider alcohol blends. Just watch the tailpipes on a lot of vehicles on a cool morning, almost a steady stream of water, liquid, not vapor, pouring out of the exhaust pipe.
If you have combustion products entering the crankcase from blow-by, worn valve guides, etc, you also have water in the crankcase. If the engine is not hot enough to flash (boil) the water off as vapor and get it to exit through the breather it will be homogenized, whipped, into the oil by the action of the cam gears, oil pump, etc.
One of our best hopes for hot weather riding on our air cooled pans is that the oil will cool off a little when it circulates through the tank. This same effect works against us when we ride in cool weather on bikes with bare metal oil lines. The oil lines cool rapidly in a cold wind and condense the water vapor adding to the problem. In really cold weather it turns to slush and blocks the oil flow, now you REALLY have a problem.
Solution?, read any of the old manuals: avoid short trips and change the oil frequently. This is not a new problem or recent developement, it was common enough and important enough that the motor company included the information in every rider handbook and shop manual.
One more comment on today's fuel, I sincerely believe it is hydroscopic, it will draw moisture from the air until there is enough of it in a container of fuel to actually separate and settle out. It happens in my fuel tank, fortunately the OEM filter/separator on my Linkert will trap it. I sometimes hold a mason jar under the filter and catch the contents when I unscrew the cap just to see how much water the fuel generates, sometimes its quite a bit.
just some thoughts.....
mike
As Cotten mentioned, one of the products of combustion is water. As fourthgear mentioned, some of us ride where the humidity levels are always high. I'm going to add another source; I firmly believe that today's fuel has a higher level of entrained moisture, more true if you consider alcohol blends. Just watch the tailpipes on a lot of vehicles on a cool morning, almost a steady stream of water, liquid, not vapor, pouring out of the exhaust pipe.
If you have combustion products entering the crankcase from blow-by, worn valve guides, etc, you also have water in the crankcase. If the engine is not hot enough to flash (boil) the water off as vapor and get it to exit through the breather it will be homogenized, whipped, into the oil by the action of the cam gears, oil pump, etc.
One of our best hopes for hot weather riding on our air cooled pans is that the oil will cool off a little when it circulates through the tank. This same effect works against us when we ride in cool weather on bikes with bare metal oil lines. The oil lines cool rapidly in a cold wind and condense the water vapor adding to the problem. In really cold weather it turns to slush and blocks the oil flow, now you REALLY have a problem.
Solution?, read any of the old manuals: avoid short trips and change the oil frequently. This is not a new problem or recent developement, it was common enough and important enough that the motor company included the information in every rider handbook and shop manual.
One more comment on today's fuel, I sincerely believe it is hydroscopic, it will draw moisture from the air until there is enough of it in a container of fuel to actually separate and settle out. It happens in my fuel tank, fortunately the OEM filter/separator on my Linkert will trap it. I sometimes hold a mason jar under the filter and catch the contents when I unscrew the cap just to see how much water the fuel generates, sometimes its quite a bit.
just some thoughts.....
mike
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fourthgear
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cotten
I have to agree with you about the evil pressure washing , I don't even like to put to much pressure on when washing , but ya have to once in a while to keep the bling ( chrome )looking good . I ride in total down pours once in a while and have no problems ,
If ridden over time , you would not believe how much water can come from the one quart of air with repeated cycles of heating and cooling . When your running its( tranny ) kinda pressurized, but come to a stop and it will take another gulp of air until the tranny pressure expels it and that cycle gos on and on when riding. How long between tranny oil changes ?
flatheadsix
You make some good points ,I like the factory manual one, about letting them fully warm up ( avoid short trips ) and of course oil changes . I can only hope that the Syn. oils I use,will help with all the attacks on my components by all the evil things out there .
There's not much we can do about the fuel now a days , except find the best that works in these old machines .
I have to agree with you about the evil pressure washing , I don't even like to put to much pressure on when washing , but ya have to once in a while to keep the bling ( chrome )looking good . I ride in total down pours once in a while and have no problems ,
If ridden over time , you would not believe how much water can come from the one quart of air with repeated cycles of heating and cooling . When your running its( tranny ) kinda pressurized, but come to a stop and it will take another gulp of air until the tranny pressure expels it and that cycle gos on and on when riding. How long between tranny oil changes ?
flatheadsix
You make some good points ,I like the factory manual one, about letting them fully warm up ( avoid short trips ) and of course oil changes . I can only hope that the Syn. oils I use,will help with all the attacks on my components by all the evil things out there .
There's not much we can do about the fuel now a days , except find the best that works in these old machines .
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Cotten
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Ethanol is indeed very hygroscopic (my old texts spell it funny).
The whole crux of the gasohol folly is that the very last bit of H20 must be removed before it can be mixed with gasoline: an un-economical process that soon reverses itself in the presence of humid air.
Anhydrous ethanol craves water.
Ironically, shooting raw water in with straight gasoline does better than adding ethanol to relieve "knocking".
But our governments see it differently.
....Cotten
The whole crux of the gasohol folly is that the very last bit of H20 must be removed before it can be mixed with gasoline: an un-economical process that soon reverses itself in the presence of humid air.
Anhydrous ethanol craves water.
Ironically, shooting raw water in with straight gasoline does better than adding ethanol to relieve "knocking".
But our governments see it differently.
....Cotten
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docscully
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Cotten, I didn't consider short hops as a potential problem. I've only had this bike for 3 wks. so I've been getting a feel for it. I was thinking the cause to be in the carb seeing as I had to replace the Kehin with an S&S Shorty. I took it out this weekend and road through the mountains. About an hour's ride. Pulled the dip stick and didn't notice any milkey oil. Oil temp was about 200.Cotten wrote:Doc!
Combustion makes water.
(Hydrocarbons split to combine with oxygen to form C02 and H20)
Traditionally, a motor that is run for only short hops in cool weather will build up moisture in the oil. (Even when it is not visible, it forms destructive acids.)
If your oiltank doesn't get hot, you aren't boiling the water out.
In very cold weather, the water can turn to slush and plug the feed line.
Water can come from other places: I don't know exactly how it can get in from riding in the rain, but a remember a friend whose stroker Chubble was blowing a plume of steam out of the breather after we finished ~30 miles in a sprinkle. The oil looked like milk.
It is a similar mystery to me about transmissions that manifest water, without combustion.
....Cotten
I appreciate all the comments from you and the others.
Doc