Oil pump woes

Lubrication System (oil feed pump and scavenger pump, reservoir, filter, and lines)
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53hydra
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Oil pump woes

#1

Post by 53hydra »

Description: my pan oil pump will wet sump and sometimes drain the whole oil tank in one night

Hey there, can some one advise if there is a fix for my problem?my pan oil pump will wet sump and sometimes drain the whole oil tank in one night! have tried new balls and springs,sometimes its not to bad and will slowly leak but other times you can check the oil tank next morning and its empty,by the way this is the 2'nd pump i've tried and the other one did the same,can you re machine the seat some how?all advise greatly appreciated
Cotten
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Re: Oil pump woes

#2

Post by Cotten »

A normal sumpleak takes from several days to several weeks to fill the motorcases and puddle.
Considering your high volume of drainage (apparently independent of the pump), it is quite possible that the galleries within the right motorcase have been altered.

Such an occurance happened to me with a freshly blue-printed '49. After much agony, I discovered with compressed air that the gallery that feeds the cam cover had been drilled deeper to where it intersected the passage where the ballcheck dumps, thus bypassing it completely.

(!)

I corrected it by tapping the gallery and installing a setscrew at the proper depth to block its entry to the passage.

....Cotten
fourthgear
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Re: Oil pump woes

#3

Post by fourthgear »

53hydra
Cotten is probably on the money as usual , my question is are both pumps after market , original (old) , or different like an S&S ? Did you do the two ball peening of the valve seat ( original type pump )? Are the check valve springs Original to the pumps?
FlatHeadSix
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Re: Oil pump woes

#4

Post by FlatHeadSix »

somebody used to make a burnishing tool for the seats in the pump. Something simple like a hardened ball silver soldered to a threaded rod that you could turn down against the seat and straighten it out a little. It did a better job than lapping them and you didn't have to worry about leaving a bunch of grit inside the pump.
Anybody know if those are still available.??
sleeper
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Re: Oil pump woes

#5

Post by sleeper »

Panzerama-

yea, Steve @ http://www.resurrectioncycle.com/

good guy..
53hydra
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Re: Oil pump woes

#6

Post by 53hydra »

Thanks guys,i've got a few things to try and look at now,i'll gheck out cottens sugestion and also chase a burnishing tool,the pump is an original cast harley unit and i've tried new springs and check balls, have'nt done the peen a check ball on the seat yet but it was sugested buy a buddy ,if i can get hold of a burnishing tool first i'll give that a go,thanks again for the help and i'll let you know how i go
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Re: Oil pump woes

#7

Post by Cotten »

If Steve doesn't produce his professional models anymore (great for sidevalves as well as OHVs), I have a batch of OHV burnishers in progress.
Do not peen a ball into the pump: Just 'cause its a Harley doesn't mean you can fix everything with a hammer!
fourthgear
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Re: Oil pump woes

#8

Post by fourthgear »

I agree with Cotten on the hammer treatment , some times you can make it worse by beating on it( thats why I asked ) . The only way that I know that eliminates the check ball and its seat is to disassemble pump so the check valve seat can be properly lapped
in. As with any other valve seat , lapping is not the only way to seat the ball , but you know its got a true seat for the valve (ball ). Some machinist dye to verify that a new ball (valve) is seating properly and you go from there.
Cotten
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Re: Oil pump woes

#9

Post by Cotten »

Lapping works, sometimes.
There are occasions where even burnishing is not perfect.

The disadvantages of lapping are:
The unit must be completely disassembled for cleaning. (Figure 2 to 2.5 hours of flatrate for the entire operation in chassis.)
Metal is removed from the pump body, thus widening the seat.
A ball on a stick is not accurately piloted to the bore of the well.
The finish left by common compounds is comparable to the molecular size of oil.

Burnishing actually moves metal. Low spots get filled as highs are reduced, on a micro level of course. In this process, the surface is work-hardend for longer life. It requires only removal of the breather line above the pump, and the cap/spring/ball of the ballcheck of course.
If your fingers are nimble, you will have no problem installing the burnisher before oil overflows into an annoying mess. Three or four slow, creeping torques up to firm and solid does it. Remove the burnisher, toss in a fresh ball and spring, cap it, put the breather back on, and de-grease and rub off your fingerprints.
Damaged pumps require some extra attention, naturally. It is preferable to do any cutting on the bench where you can have total hygiene, but I have a piloted conical stone that I apply by hand to dress blemishes or rust prior to finish-burnishing. The stone loads quickly, so I feel that most particles come out with it when used in chassis. And of course the oil quickly purges as well!

We all know oil penetrates. That's why we use it in motors. An absolute seal is probably an un-attainable ideal.
What we hope to accomplish is to reduce seepage to where the machine can sit out of service for extended periods without filling the cases and overflowing at the sprocket shaft. (Some of us are embarrassed by such incontinence, especially when you leave a trail across the carpet and out the driveway.)
The time it takes to manifest itself not only depends upon the ballcheck, but the time between rides. And those with a sprocketshaft seal mask the problem until the cases completely fill and it blows out the breather.

By burnishing, it is possible to have a machine sit all winter (in a heated garage) and still have a full four quarts in the oiltank. I still personally find that amazing.

....Cotten
panfreak
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Re: Oil pump woes

#10

Post by panfreak »

Honey, I can't help it, I have to go for a ride today to minimize sumping. Very Happy
fourthgear
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Re: Oil pump woes

#11

Post by fourthgear »

I have lapped valves of all kinds ,including high pressure steam and have had the proper results ,NO LEAKING as far as burnishing , I have never used the method myself , moving metal ? Are you welding it? Oil, I assure you is no match for steam or water under pressure . If there is a way to go past a valve or gasket, they will find it . I am not saying burnishing doesn't work , I 'm sure it has its place and not disassembling the oil pump may be one of them. I see it this way , if you believe your check valve is the problem you need to repair it and test it and it can be tested on the bench the same way you test your manifold for leaks . You have to eliminate the check valve completely and go from there , by repairing in place and hoping it holds seems to me a waste of time, by disassembling the pump you get to inspect it completely, bad gasket , cracked housing , etc. and you get to check you oil passages in the case at the same time. I might have took three cents on this one.
Cotten
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Re: Oil pump woes

#12

Post by Cotten »

It appears a little more explanation of "burnishing" is needed.

When you tape up a package, and then run your thumb over the tape to flatten it, that's a very simple form of burnishing. Pressure from a moving tool smooths the surface. Rub the tape with a hard blunt object like the side of a pen, and the tape becomes inseparable from the cardboard.
With malleable metals, the surface layer is quite plastic and can be compacted as well as smoothed. This not only hardens the surface, it can be used to stiffen an object, or to straighten a hole. One of the most common form of metal burnishers are rounded precision plugs that are then pressed or beaten through a slightly undersized hole. More elaborate ones are often used as one would a broach, however they have blunt knobs instead of cutting edges, in increasing diameter along its length.
Some of the advantages of burnishing are speed, accuracy, finish, and lack of abrasives or chips.
A ballcheck seat burnisher applies a concentrated moving pressure exactly where it is needed. Instead of removing metal, it rearranges it into a more durable form, with a microscopic profile comparable to Clover Compound 6-A, if not smoother.

....Cotten
sleeper
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Re: Oil pump woes

#13

Post by sleeper »

Pic of Cotten's 'Burnisher & conical stone'
My copy of these work very well...
dj

Re: Oil pump woes

#14

Post by dj »

Cotton!

I want one. Please let us know when they are ready. I seriously want one. Send me a pm or make them available any way you had planned on, but I want one.
Congrats on breaking 1000 Cotton & Billy!
fourthgear
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Re: Oil pump woes

#15

Post by fourthgear »

I think that conical stone it going to do the same as lapping , don't ya think? Yes it can be used with pump in place , but believing you flush all the loose material is wishful thinking at best. From that check valve it goes directly into the case. Nice tools for sure! If I was still doing this for a living I might want to try one. On a cast pump of course.
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