sumping question

Lubrication System (oil feed pump and scavenger pump, reservoir, filter, and lines)
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chuck 56 pan
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sumping question

#1

Post by chuck 56 pan »

after rebuild of my engine, ran it a several miles and then it sat over the winter. now it wont start and the oil bag is about 2qt low, the kicker feels slugish. could it not be starting because there are 2qt of oil in the bottom now? I imagine the wheels are swimming in 60wt. Am I barking up the wrong tree? what do you think?
Cotten
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Re: sumping question

#2

Post by Cotten »

Chuck!

There could be two quarts if you have a sprocket shaft seal for a belt drive.
Otherwise, most would have safely leaked down through the primary case.

The ball-check issue in the oil pump is diabolical.
When you search the Knowledge Base, please be aware that my "better idea" pf burnishing pumps proved to be a fiasco.

Although it has been reported to work great on modern aluminum pumps, for what that's worth...

....Cotten
Huck
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Re: sumping question

#3

Post by Huck »

Happens allot, turn off the gas, pull the plugs, start kicking. It’ll show up on the floor.
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Re: sumping question

#4

Post by james »

I have the same oil on the floor from hibernation.
I'm thinking of draining the oil tank before the next long winters nap.

Jim
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Re: sumping question

#5

Post by kitabel »

The obvious cure is a petcock in the line between the tank and the feed pump inlet.
It can be easily fixed if:
1. you're the only operator
2. always sober & conscientious
3. remember to leave an aircraft-style red tag such as "turn on petcock", or
4. an ignition kill hooked up to your oil pressure switch

A solenoid works very well, until it doesn't...
58flh
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Re: sumping question

#6

Post by 58flh »

Kitabel --Im with you ,(but its not original :mrgreen: )--Besides If you know how to make a pump seat ROUND again no problem,I cant remember when mine last puked,I was younger then!---Richie
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Re: sumping question

#7

Post by Cotten »

If only it were that easy, Richie!

As I have posted previously, once I actually started bubble-testing the seat at 3-4psi,
CHEKTEST.jpg
..it soon proved that all methods, whether cutting, angle grinds, lapping, burnishing, or setting with a drift made things worse over a simple flat grind from the top, with the stone on the far right.
CHKCUTRS.jpg
Removing the original seat to a sharp edge gave the best result.

It seems that the threads to the cap are not often concentric with original seats, thus worthless for piloting a tool.

....Cotten
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58flh
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Re: sumping question

#8

Post by 58flh »

TOM--Yes not lined-up with inner!--so I to found that using it as a Pilot useless,However its not the END! Depending on how bad the seat is pitted or out-of-round --My fix was rather Cavemanish!-But I have not sumped in a VERY LONG time!--She can sit out the 4-months & I fire-up & no puke!--I used & your probably going to laugh at this --Toothpaste, Baking soda, cigarette ashes,& Pumice (of a very light quality as used for scratch removal from mirrors.)-A piece of antenna tube that I crazy-glued to a new ball.I then used the Toothpaste & Bakingsoda & pumice,& Lapped that seat for a LONG-TIME!--I remember the new-years twilight-zone marathon was on for 24hrs.!--I probably lapped for 10hrs.-putting fresh paste & pumice on the ball regularly,After I got to a ROUND SHINY RING & cleaned all the gunk out--I then used olny paste & cigarette ashes for a mirror polish on the seat .Again this took another 2-shows to accomplish.Again I cleaned-up all the gunk & cleared the glue off the new check-ball. Then I dropped the ball in under its own weight & took a straw with oil & put it in the hole.It held the oil for a very-long time under its own weight!--I left it in a vise & looked again about 2hrs,& noticed some on the table but there was oil still at the balls top.So I pretty much new the seat was good & with the spring she is good to this day!--I did this 3-top-ends ago. so 6-7yrs.-I run a OEM iron pump with chain-oiler that funtions perfectly.Alot of sumpers have distorted seats ,I mean ofcourse they do that's why they sump!---Theres nothing wrong with a bike that sumps! after a winter break.I just happen to be LUCKY that my pumps seat was ROUND to begin with!--Before I lapped it -It would sump about a 1/2 to 3/4s of a QT. After 4-months of non-use.----Respectfuly---RICHIE
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Re: sumping question

#9

Post by Cotten »

Richie!

There are many good lapping compounds, whether it is flowers of sulphur, cigarette ashes, newpaper, or my favorite Clover compounds which I would apply in finer and finer grades with the conical lapp shown above, all the way from coarse "C" grade, down to micro "6A", before Simichrome. And that was to seats already rough dressed with the stone.
CHKSEAT2.jpg
I have burnished pumps still on the engine, and had one hold a full oil tank for a Chicago winter, but I still must discourage it.

Let us consider what would be the "perfect" seat.
Like any valve, the wider the contact surface, the more difficult it is for an absolute seal.
Ideally, the polished ball would contact the seat in a perfect circle in one plane of points.
A concave seat would be the hardest to seal, as there could be many points of interference.
It would seem that if the ball were dropped into a conical seat, it would contact appropriately, but bubbles say other wise.

As I posted, a flat-grind to eliminate the entire seat to a sharp edge worked best, and that assumed the hole in the casting itself was still round.
So one could hone and lapp the hole round first, then grind and lapp the top surface to a mirror as well.
But unless you can actually see damage to the original seat, which is not easy to observe,
CHKSEAT1.jpg
its just a lot easier to drain the oil if the machine is going to sit for a while!


....Cotten
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Huck
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Re: sumping question

#10

Post by Huck »

I don’t like the looks of a modern pump on an old mill but understand why it’s done. Often wondered why some smart guy hasn’t pressed in a new seat and cut new threads. What prompted the thought was fondling the ferrules from a Swagelok fitting.
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Re: sumping question

#11

Post by Cotten »

Huck!

How are you going to make and dress a seat that is any better than attempting to dress the old one?

Softer material would be a band-aid.
Harder material that could be machined to a sharp edge, might be of benefit, but as I found with the petcock problem, you can also have leakage around the pressed-in seat, just complicating the procedure.

...Cotten
Huck
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Re: sumping question

#12

Post by Huck »

Cotton,

Re read my post! I stated "some smart guy" why you asking me? The right fix could track a fellow to rich famous!
The ferrule, SS, already has a nice looking compound angle.
I've also seen valves on them like Kitabel spoke to. But, should you happen to be jumping out a bedroom window.....
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Re: sumping question

#13

Post by bangkokbob »

Like most things in life- Use it or lose it.
james
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Re: sumping question

#14

Post by james »

I'm suprised no-one has come up with a "peek" seat to insert into the pump.

Jim
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Re: sumping question

#15

Post by Cotten »

I investigated that, Jim!

After all, I have plenty of the expensive scrap.

But the problem then becomes leakage around the seat, even if a brass replacement is used.

Brass will accept a fuel-proof sealer far better than PEEK.
(Seal-Lock "Fluid-Weld")
But neither will be as long-lived as the original casting.

Once again, no matter what suspenders-and-belts you stick in there,
final dressing the seat is the 'crux of the biscuit', or however Frank Z's saying goes....

...Cotten
PS: I even tried teflon balls.
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