Crankcase Breather Blew all my Oil Out

Lubrication System (oil feed pump and scavenger pump, reservoir, filter, and lines)
Post Reply
rby1234
Member
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:08 am
Bikes: 2003 Road King, 2004 Heritage Softail, 1948 Indian Chief, 1955 or so Panhead

Crankcase Breather Blew all my Oil Out

#1

Post by rby1234 »

This is probably an easy one! My Panhead / Shovel Bottom was up on a flat jack for three weeks. After fixing the leaking front forks and redoing the primary cover tin with a new gasket and sealant, I was ready for a test run. I hit the electric start (forever) and after finally realizing I would have to try some starting fluid, I got off the bike only to see about 2 quarts of oil below my crankcase breather line (and all over my back tire). Just wondering what's going on and what's the best/easiest fix? All help would be appreciated! Thanks in advance.
Panacea
Senior Member
Posts: 2087
Joined: Fri May 24, 2002 1:00 am
Bikes: 64FL 99FLHR 01FXSTD
Location: Mpls. MN.
Has thanked: 72 times
Been thanked: 145 times

Re: Crankcase Breather Blew all my Oil Out

#2

Post by Panacea »

Do a search on "oil sumping"
blewcrab
Member
Posts: 301
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:08 pm
Bikes: 65FL and 2003 heritage
Location: Southern Maryland
Has thanked: 90 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Re: Crankcase Breather Blew all my Oil Out

#3

Post by blewcrab »

if u were on the starter for a long time..your crank case can fill with oil....the pump wont return it as fast as it pulls it down....or your check ball is not seated in the pump...either way,not a big problem.
rby1234
Member
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:08 am
Bikes: 2003 Road King, 2004 Heritage Softail, 1948 Indian Chief, 1955 or so Panhead

Re: Crankcase Breather Blew all my Oil Out

#4

Post by rby1234 »

Thanks, that's good to know. Since the post I've done some reading; I think the next step is to replace the ball and spring in the oil pump.
awander
Senior Member
Posts: 2082
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:03 am
Bikes: '52 FL
'64 FLH
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 511 times

Re: Crankcase Breather Blew all my Oil Out

#5

Post by awander »

The pump is designed to return oil faster than it supplies it.
kitabel
Senior Member
Posts: 1500
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:10 pm
Bikes: 1937 U big flathead, 88" stroker, dual port, big cams, pop-up pistons
Location: Lynbrook, New York
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 387 times
Contact:

Re: Crankcase Breather Blew all my Oil Out

#6

Post by kitabel »

your crank case can fill with oil....the pump wont return it as fast as it pulls it down

Backwards.
The return rate is always much higher than the pressure side.
awander
Senior Member
Posts: 2082
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:03 am
Bikes: '52 FL
'64 FLH
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 511 times

Re: Crankcase Breather Blew all my Oil Out

#7

Post by awander »

kitabel wrote:your crank case can fill with oil....the pump wont return it as fast as it pulls it down

Backwards.
The return rate is always much higher than the pressure side.
Haven't I heard that somewhere before?...:)
Cotten
Senior Member
Posts: 6937
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2002 2:30 am
Bikes: -
Location: Central Illinois
Has thanked: 112 times
Been thanked: 310 times

Re: Crankcase Breather Blew all my Oil Out

#8

Post by Cotten »

Andy is right of course,

Although both feed and return gears spin at the same speed,
the return is significantly larger, drawing more volume than is fed to the motor. This is necessary to accomodate expansion from heat, foaming, etc..

Rby1234!

If the machine cannot be kick-started easily, you face more serious problems than sumping.

....Cotten
rby1234
Member
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:08 am
Bikes: 2003 Road King, 2004 Heritage Softail, 1948 Indian Chief, 1955 or so Panhead

Re: Crankcase Breather Blew all my Oil Out

#9

Post by rby1234 »

Thanks for all the help. As far as hard to start, it wasn't until I rebuilt the carb that it became hard to start (scary huh?). After it starts, it runs fine. The best way to get it started seems to be 10-12 full throttle cranks with it on the kickstand, then hit the starter with no choke and giving it no gas. This time the bike was on a flat jack for several weeks.

In regards to the oil system, I know where all my hoses go and what they do, but have always wondered about lubrication within the crankcase, it's bearings, etc. I assume the oil pump somehow pumps/drips/sprays oil into certain areas of the crankcase, but there is no sump of "crankcase oil" like in my Road King. I am further assuming that when the check ball is stuck open, the gravity feed of oil (from the oil tank) goes past the ball and somehow goes into the crankcase via those same oil ports? I have searched, but haven't found a good diagram which addresses "everywhere" the oil pump pumps to.
panhead
Site Admin
Senior Member
Posts: 3289
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:00 pm
Bikes: 1954 FL
Location: Holland
Has thanked: 108 times
Been thanked: 486 times

Re: Crankcase Breather Blew all my Oil Out

#10

Post by panhead »

I have searched, but haven't found a good diagram which addresses "everywhere" the oil pump pumps to.
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=4322
steve_wood
Senior Member
Posts: 953
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:32 am
Bikes: 56 FLH, 2007 FLHRCI
Location: Belleville, Ontario, Canada
Has thanked: 49 times
Been thanked: 28 times

Re: Crankcase Breather Blew all my Oil Out

#11

Post by steve_wood »

... but there is no sump of "crankcase oil" like in my Road King
There is a small amount (maybe a pint?) of volume in the cases that acts like a sump.

If you ever get the chance to examine the inside of your cases, you'll see that there is a hole that allows oil to drain from the space where the crankshaft rotates back into the cam chest. This hole is not quite at the bottom of the case so it allows oil to collect there in the space where the crankcase lives.

If you think about it, this allows the crankshaft to splash oil back up into the cylinders.


steve
rby1234
Member
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:08 am
Bikes: 2003 Road King, 2004 Heritage Softail, 1948 Indian Chief, 1955 or so Panhead

Re: Crankcase Breather Blew all my Oil Out

#12

Post by rby1234 »

Thanks much to all for your help. As simple as it was, I removed the check valve ball (it looked good, no scoring) and stretched the spring slightly. Put some more oil in the tank and so far, the problem is solved! Can't believe it was so simple!
Cotten
Senior Member
Posts: 6937
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2002 2:30 am
Bikes: -
Location: Central Illinois
Has thanked: 112 times
Been thanked: 310 times

Re: Crankcase Breather Blew all my Oil Out

#13

Post by Cotten »

rby1234 wrote:Thanks much to all for your help. As simple as it was, I removed the check valve ball (it looked good, no scoring) and stretched the spring slightly. Put some more oil in the tank and so far, the problem is solved! Can't believe it was so simple!
rby1234!

It is not that simple.
Assuming the stretched spring does not starve the supply,
it still must sit a matter of weeks until you know if it is still seeping or not.

If you are running the machine regularly, sumping is never a problem.

....Cotten
kitabel
Senior Member
Posts: 1500
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:10 pm
Bikes: 1937 U big flathead, 88" stroker, dual port, big cams, pop-up pistons
Location: Lynbrook, New York
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 387 times
Contact:

Re: Crankcase Breather Blew all my Oil Out

#14

Post by kitabel »

Re: "there is a hole that allows oil to drain from the space where the crankshaft rotates back into the cam chest. This hole is not quite at the bottom of the case so it allows oil to collect there in the space where the crankcase lives"

This confuses 2 different openings with different purposes.

The "sludge trap" is a small depression in both case bottoms directly below the sprocket shaft, It's very small and only holds a few CC, and serves to accumulate small pieces of debris from the circulating oil. Oil collected here never leaves, the trap is always full of something but it's not part of the scavenge flow path. This area is accessible from the left side to remove sludge by removing the screw. All H-D twin engines have this.

The much larger area in OHV cases is present in both cases, located above the rear motor mount at about 2 o'clock (as seen from the right side). Oil doesn't drain into it from the flywheels since it's too high up, but is instead collected by the scrapers located at the edge of the opening. Once inside, gravity moves the oil down into the pump intake in the right case.

By comparison, the area in sidevalve cases is located below the rear motor mount at about 4 o'clock (as seen from the right side). Oil from here is again collected by the scrapers located at the edge of the opening, but doesn't reach the pump directly, but must be blown up-hill by the breather system to reach the return pump intake.

The residual oil volume in the cases is less than 4 oz. (1/4 of a pint), and even this is only because the timed breather system is not completely effective at all engine speeds. Ideally, the cases would be completely empty.
Only engines with a sump and a pick-up (such as Triumph twins) need any oil volume inside the cases.
rby1234
Member
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:08 am
Bikes: 2003 Road King, 2004 Heritage Softail, 1948 Indian Chief, 1955 or so Panhead

Re: Crankcase Breather Blew all my Oil Out

#15

Post by rby1234 »

A couple more questions:
1. If the bike will be sitting for some time, what about clamping the inlet hose closed?
2. If after sitting for a bit and dumping continues, then is the only fix a new ball, spring and lapping the seat?
Thanks...
Post Reply

Return to “Lubrication System/Oil pump/Oil filter”