74" Cylinders - Resleeving

[steve_wood]

Can it be done? If a cylinder is already bored out by .060", can a sleeve be installed to bring it back to stock? Does it work well? Is it worth it?

steve

[VT]

http://www.lasleeve.com/master.html
Ask the pro's.
Here's another link:
http://www.lasleeve.com/
They sleeve anything but Knuckle cylinders (too many base area fractures exist in old Knuckle cylin. due to the jackhammering they get over the years from the cast iron top end).

[steve_wood]

The link doesn't work.

I'd like to ask the greybeards on this site instead.

Anybody?

steve

[Jack_Hester]

I have mine resleeved locally, using sleeves from L.A. Sleeves. My buddy Pat uses a 0.003" interferance fit. He performs a step that no other shops do. He bores the cylinder to the exact size of the sleeve. Then, plates the inside of the cylinder with 0.003" of copper. After that, it's a normal installation of chilling the sleeve, and heating the cylinder. The sleeve will almost drop in, but he uses a fast-travel press to push it through. The copper fills the imperfections of boring, and makes for a complete fit. Costs more, but I like it. About the same price as you would pay to ship to L.A. Sleeve for them to do.

Jack

[1950 Bobber]

The link doesn't work.

I'd like to ask the greybeards on this site instead.

Anybody?

steve

I've got a set of OEM Panhead cylinders that have been "resleeved" back to a stock bore configuration by a well known "greybeard" and the job was beautiful, though contrary to what Jack relates...I don't know HOW it was accomplished!!! Of course, until I mount those cylinders and run her, it's just a fireplace mantle decoration I guess...but, Boy...they look great and no disappointment from this old maestro of a technician! I feel comfortable running this on my back-to-stock Panhead......

[62pan]

Back when I was in the motorcycle business I used to sleeve cylinders on a regular basis. You have to be sure there is almost no core shift or you will be way too thin on one side. For what it's worth, I never had that problem with stock (H-D) jugs. I did do a few knuckle cylinders and they worked out well. By the time you are done you will have a stock-bored genuine set of cylinders and that's not a bad thing.

[mbskeam]

I've got a set of OEM Panhead cylinders that have been "resleeved" back to a stock bore configuration by a well known "greybeard"

who?

I have seen it done, heat jugs in oven 350 bake and the sleeves on dry ice, almost drops all the way thru, then on a press that is set up before hand.....


mbskeam

[Cotten]

Sleeving is not just a matter of poke 'n press, and anyone who installs air-cooled motor sleeves in the same manner as water-cooled autos hasn't been confronted with the results.

The technique that Jack relates is probably the best way to overcome the heat transfer problem that arises from an insulating gap between the sleeve and the matrix casting.

In the absence of a compliant layer of a conducting metal such as copper, the bore of the casting must be honed to as fine a micro-finsh as possible. This is not just to aid the installation, but to eliminate the air gap.

Attached is a photo of a sleeve removed after failure due to boring machine toolmark left in the casting. Even though it was a proper press fit (probably), it is obvious that it distorted with heat, allowing carbon to form within at the bottom.

The sleeve does not need an unusual amount of interference to stay put. It has the same expansion characteristics as the casting. The interference is to insure tight contact for heat transfer.
The act of pressing further burnishes the micro hills and valleys to mate, so the technique of cooling the sleeve to where it just drops in has its disadvantages. Chilling also robs the machinist of 'feel' for the true interference when installed. With both pieces at room temperature, and proper lube (preferably one that will stay in to fill gaps, such as "Seal-Lock".), pressing at .0015" interference is not difficult.

Extreme interferences will stess the casting un-necessarily.

Just as a cylinder distorts from fastener stress when larger overbores are reached, a sleeved cylinder distorts like a spring-within-a-spring, so the use of torqueplates for hone-fitting the piston is more than prudent.

Frankly, Steve's cylinder still has life in it without sleeving, as long as the next overbore is properly fitted using torqueplates. And it will run stronger and cooler than a poke'n'pressed sleeve.

They make pistons up to .100" oversize for a reason.

....Cotten
PS: LA Sleeves are far more concentric and a better material than the 'off brands' that I have had to deal with.

[1950 Bobber]

As always, Cotten.....EXTREMELY informative. Thank you for posting that.

Jim in Seattle "1950 Bobber"

[Jack_Hester]

Think about posting Pat's contact info if he would agree to it......

Pat has no Internet or email. Says the Internet will corrupt you. He is a recluse, by most accounts, though very active in politics. I lost contact with him over the past couple of weeks, as he was out campaigning for Obama. Just as well I didn't see him. Anyway, his contact info is as follows:

Pat Riley
Riley Machine Co.
336-597-5494

I'm also in the process of checking out another machinist who just bought out an old existing shop in Roxboro (NC). Pat recommended him to me for getting out some broken taps that he couldn't get out with a diamond drill. This fellow says he can, with a process that he learned in trade school. I'll let you know how that turns out, as I will feed him some work from time to time. He wants motorcycle repair work, as in aluminum repair and milling. He knows that I will continue to feed most of mine to Pat, but give him just enough to let him know what's expected in the area of restorations.

Jack

[Cotten]

1950 Bobber:

So what's your point?

I'll bet Bill uses a lube, just as I posted.
Copper would be ideal, but that wasn't my idea.

And I endorsed room temp pressing.

Try harder if you are looking for an arguement.


...Cotten

[FlatHeadSix]

Ok, lets start over. Steve began this thread by asking "Can it be done?" I'll ask the same question but for a different problem.

What if the cylinder has already been sleeved once and needs it again? What if the cylinders are really rare, like 7-bolt 74" flathead jugs for a VL? The cylinders have a lot of other issues as well, a few broken fins and one of the intake nipples has been brazed in, are they worth saving or are they scrap iron. I guess I could also make some wall art out of them by mounting them to a varnished plaque and hanging them in the shop.

Most of the survivors have had some catastrophic detonation in the bottom end, you should see the rods that came out of this engine.

I'm serious though, can these be saved?, by who?

mike

[1950 Bobber]

Ok, lets start over. Steve began this thread by asking "Can it be done?" I'll ask the same question but for a different problem.

What if the cylinder has already been sleeved once and needs it again? What if the cylinders are really rare, like 7-bolt 74" flathead jugs for a VL? The cylinders have a lot of other issues as well, a few broken fins and one of the intake nipples has been brazed in, are they worth saving or are they scrap iron. I guess I could also make some wall art out of them by mounting them to a varnished plaque and hanging them in the shop.

Most of the survivors have had some catastrophic detonation in the bottom end, you should see the rods that came out of this engine.

I'm serious though, can these be saved?, by who?

mike

Again...I refer to my conversations with Bill of Bill's Barn. He told me a story, or rather some history of one of his friend's flattie. Bill says he sleeved his friend's
flattie cylinders in 1960, there or abouts. He then bored those cylinders three times before RE-SLEEVING THEM a SECOND TIME and now 200,000 miles later after that first re-sleeving...that flattie is still on the road! If I'm not mistaken, and I'm no expert, flatties run hot, probably a bit hotter than our OHV bikes...the sleeves NEVER failed on this flattie ACCORDING TO BILL and I have NO REASON to doubt him.

I'd say, give Bill a shout, see what he can do for you. (570) 759-9684.

Please no sharp-shooters...I'm trying my best to be open with my info for whatever it's worth...I'm NOT coming off as a know-it-all 'CAUSE I'M NOT, ..I'm just trying to help out some Brothers!!!

[Cotten]

Mike!

Rare castings are the only ones that should be considered, as a sleeved casting can only approach the virtues of the original, even with extreme measures like copper plating, much less the laying of hands by legendary personalities.

The brazed intake nipple is a can o' worms in itself, but anyway...

LA Sleeves will produce over-standard sizes to order, at understandable extra expense.
Your considerations are not hard to guess:
As the sleeve OD gets bigger, the matrix casting gets smaller, allowing it to flex dramatically with not only fastener stress, but the pulsing expansion and contractions of service.

The circumstance you wish to avoid is when the casting is breached, whether by the machinist's best guess at core-float, or just by the limitations of the geometric reality.
Attached is the worst possible scenario, where a window to the sleeve is exposed. (Please do not ask me for recommendations for sleeving services, as this example is the result of my well-tested best choice. Tragedies happen to the best of even legendary providers.
If they haven't, they haven't really logged a valid history.)

The success of any radical attempt hinges upon other factors within the motor, of course. Anything that might contribute to excessive heat compromises the gamble, and we all know that Flatties run at a higher optimum temperature to begin with.

The weakest point of a repaired cylinder is where the metal is thinnest, but thankfully, that is also where the pressures of combustion are also the least. (I have referred previously on this forum to an imported Pan cylinder that ran without perforating, even though the remaining wall at one point was less than .010" thick, and a thrown wristpin was gouging deep. The thin spot probably puckered in and out like it was breathing!)
So there is hope, and a reason to attempt almost anything.

As I have posted previously, careful observations and techniques such as torque-plate fitting are critical. These are not mystical spells.
Methods that cannot be described are a hollow bluff.

...Cotten

[VT]

Those two flathead cylinders would make great door stops. Turn the cylinders face down, and use one of the four holes (only one will allow the correct "balance"). Cut and thread both ends of a 1/4 steel rod. Install a V-Twin (big) shifter knob on one end and secure the base end to that "magic" base flange hole and you'll have a swell doorstop that will be a conversation piece as well as an instant door "tool".
Bil Davidson should have picked up on this back in 1930 and offered them in the Enthusiast's handbook of Xmas gift ideas. Well he didn't, but now we have. Another first for http://hydra-glide.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

45stop18162ib5.jpg

It's a sweet stop - made even better by the blow-hole and the gnarly split in the thin, unsupported cylinder sleeve. The cast cylinder wall's not that thick to begin with either.
[Note: The rod has to be tailor-cut to fit your own Neanderthalic swing. You arm should pendulum without any shoulder shrugging (or it's wrong); and the natural curve of your mitt, on it's downward swing, will then hook onto the knob like a jockey lever. This natural swing helps levitate the cylinder head with the least amount of effort. Another "Glide thing" that produces a pleasant Zen effect.

45 cu. in.

Bill H. never liked either feature-flaw, from what I've read.
(Never mind the horrifying crack on the left - helps retain oil for mid-cylinder lubing.)
I don't think L.A. Sleeve does H-D flathead cylinders. Knuckle's get the same micro-cracks from the cast iron heads jack-hammering.