Lifters: solid or hydraulic with 48-52 pans

[Fred]

Does most people with 48-52 pans run solid set up on the push rods?

[Panacea]

I did on my 49 and 51. I think they came new with hydrolic pushrods. MW

[fourthgear]

I do because you really can't trust the older hyd. system and the older Pans were not set up to run hyd. lifters because of oil passages for them are not there , I think until 1953 .
I happen to like solids my self, no worries about them pumping down or waiting for them to pump up, if they do, you know ( when properly adj. ) the valves open and close properly . Valve train timing does effect motor performance.

[Cotten]

Most early Pan owners have removed the original hydraulics because:

Oil doesn't flow up hill very well, and you can blow out the right motorcase waiting for them to fill.

Most original units are found in sets of three.

No one in their right mind would reproduce them.

....Cotten

[King]

Ferd

I run solids on my 51FL and am very pleased with the performance, quiet operation, and ease of adjustment.

All early Pans 48 through 51 (+early 52?) had the so called "oilcan" push rods with the hydraulic unit built in at their tops. As Cotten and Fourthgear noted, it was a poor idea to begin with and the ones existing today are most likely shot.

Starting in 52 the hydraulic lifters were built in to the tappets and oil passages were built into the cases to feed them. The early cases do not have these passages, so using hydraulic tappets in them will not work although some people have drilled in the feed passages which I hear is a pretty iffy operation. So solids are the way to go with the early pan.

A word of caution. When you install the solids be sure to replace the tappet wheels. Solids put a lot more strain on the wheels than hydraulics and can cause failure if the wheels are not in good condition.

Good Luck

King

[Fred]

OK, Sounds like the Old Hydraulic pushrods need to go!!!
Now, What do I replace them with, What is on the market
Aluminum or Steel? I have seen some people weld up the Hydraulics (a set is on ebay now) I read somewhere that Steel would stay in better adjustment through out the heat range BTW thanks for the quick response to my original question
I joined the AMCA last week to get help with questions on my Pan.
The forum on their web is dead as a hammer. Thanks Again
Fred

[Pantony]

Cotton, My 48FL sounds tickety,tickety when warm. When I change my oil it's really load then after I get preasure (50psi cold) it quites down so I wonder if the oil-cans are that way or do they run absolutley quite?

[Cotten]

Pantony!

So I take it that you still have the original hydraulics installed?

Are you draining your oil for the oilchange from the pumpline? You might be able to avoid the dangerous bleed-down by only draining the tank.

And don't forget that if you run the original hydraulics, the original ball-check filter housing in the overhead oiling passage is very important to avoid this condition.

Beyond that, your units seem to sing the same song as solids anyway. Properly set, solids will be very quiet at start-up, gradually clack a little as the motor warms, and then settle down to a sweet tickety-tick when the entire motor has reached its running temperature.

As far as what the originals should sound like, I don't recall ever hearing any!

....Cotten

[Pantony]

Cotten: My 48's pic is in the Panhead gallery; "48 at Home", in it you will see the spin-on oil filter I have in the return line. I don't know if thats the filter you mean (don't get upset, the spin-on is there for the break-in only the original canister-felt filter is going back on). The bike only has 31,000 original miles on it so if there was any type of "ball check" it would have to have been installed when new. My motor sounds kinda opposite the solids you describe a little louder when cold but when warm it sounds a little like my 61 ford 292 V8 used to when i was in high-school, it's a sweet tickety tick. I hated adusting valves and i let them go sometimes. I wonder what all that valvetrain play does to those bronze rocker caps. They were sized properly on rebuild and the entire bike is restored down to the last nut and bolt cad-plating. The rest of the motor is dead quite all I can hear is the valve clearance and the wine from the gear chest. One more question on another part, I have the original (new re-pop) rocket fin muffler, when trying to get the mixture dialed in, and I got it set pretty good, I drove it for a while (I drive ths bike EVERY day to work 25 miles one way unless it's a pouring rainstorm) the bike just seemed like it was starveing for air so I took that muffler off and put a plain black "Cigar" muffler (Mellow-Tone) for a 50FL on it and it seems to wake this bike up. Is it me or does the cigar allow for better breathing?

[Cotten]

The filter I mentioned is under a cap on your right motorcase, just above the cam cover, and near the rear tappet block. But my Palmer's is at the shop, and now I cannot remember the first year that it was introduced. '48's still had the Knuck casting conformity, so it may well not have one, adding to your bleed-down problem.

From what I've read, mufflers do not "breathe", they "scavenge" or maybe snuff "reversion". At any rate, the proof is in the pudding, so you may wish to just save that very desirable original piece on the wall somewhere! If its appearance is critical, then most folks would cut the guts out of a repop instead.

...Cotten

[108]

I built my '48 pan from a basket case many years ago and the original top- plunger pushrods worked but were very erratic hot and would always seem to start claking at embarassing times .You could convert them to solid but I reasoned why jerk all that steel up and down . Even back then there were aluminum solid pushrods available and thats the only way to go since the lighter rods alone create less noise, plus they expand with the cylinders.

[Pantony]

108: the steel ones have a thermal expantion rate closer to the cast iron cylinders. Aluminium would expand at a differnent rate. My engine runs the same every time it warms up. The valetrain noise never changes warm-up to warm-up. I just was curious it it is supposed to be completly silent

[fourthgear]

I run alloy push rods, Jim's one piece tappet/lifter Assembly's and have no problems with them at all . If they don't make a little clicking or ticking when warm , they may be too tight. My thinking is , the lighter the weight , the less strain on components and the better the performance , That is also why I used KB pistons.

[Pantony]

Well this bike is original down to OEM NOS pistons and I wanted to keep it that way as much as possable. I really have a handfull of re-pop parts on it (sans my own oil preasure gauge and temp gauge) hence the reason for putting the hydraulic pushrods back in it. Heck it only has 31,000 original miles and theres hardly any wear on the clutch plates and points & condenser. For these reasons I just kept it that way. No re-chroming no aluminium pushrods and no solid steel pushrods. I just was curious if the valvetrain was supposed to be completely quite. I guess I'm getting it that they don't quiet down all the way which is most likely why they went to "real" hydrualic lifters in 53

[Cotten]

RE: solids:
Steel pushrods expand more similarly to the cylinders, than alloy, but not exactly, of course. That's just one of the reasons why hydraulics were devised.
Alloy will work fine, but they should be adjusted as tight as possible without losing compression. Once the motor is warm they will be plenty loose.

Pantony's intent to keep everything as OEM as possible shouldn't be too hard, as original pushrods are certainly in-expensive. But testing them in the motor to find good ones might be expensive.

Ah geez, I forgot to look up the overhead filter in Palmer's today.

Historical note: For some bizarre reason, the Factory decided to dispense with the overhead passage filter from somewhere in mid '65, and well into '66 at least.
I became proficient at pulling my rat '65 hack to the side of the road and cleaning out a lifter, and re-installing it hot.

....Cotten