Hydraulic lifters in a '48 pan

[kidtnt99]

I am building a 1948 panhead and am putting an andrews A grind in it,i hate farting around adjusting pushrods so was wondering if i could put 1953 and up hydraulic lifter units in it and run solid push rods in it like in the old 1953 harleys.If not why

all the help i can get is appreciated Thanks Dale

[Cotten]

Even if you drilled feed galleries into your right motor case for later tappet blocks, the A grind is notorious for failing to keep lifters filled at low rpms with a stock pump.

The combination of a weakened casting plus hammering lifters can be disastrous.

....Cotten

[Guest]

Go with the J grind cam , And drill for late hyd lifters this will work well together. J easy on early valve train and will ( all around )be better than A grind will . IMO

[texasbobber]

Cotten, is there an aftermarket cam that you might recommend to use with Velva Touch hydraulic lifters in an 84" motor? I feel like hydraulics will compensate for different thermal expansion properties that make up the valve train. With a kick-start only every little bit helps.
Are you aware of any mild cams that stay pumped up using hydraulic lifters?
texasbobber

[Cotten]

TexasBobber!

I have zero experience with any hydraulics other than OEM design.
The mildest cam available that will pump properly with OEM hydraulics is OEM.

There is nothing wrong with going solid for a 'performance' cam, or even for a stock cam, as there are few other options for a pre-'53 Pan motor: The original hydraulics are a liability.

Drilling galleries into the right case is far more trouble than it is worth, by my experience.

....Cotten

[texasbobber]

Cotten, do you think that the use of solids might account for hot start difficulties?
texasbobber

[45brit]

no, being a panhead accounts for hot start difficulties.

seriously, no other bike in God's green world has hydraulics and other big twins of that period have the same problems. Shovels don't, and they have hydraulics.

it's a combination of 6v electrics, old-fashioned carb, poorly-shaped inlets and big cylinders - oh and no valve lifter like Brit bikes have so you can get the cylinders full and the engine spinning then drop it as you go past compression

[Cotten]

Sweet cheeses.

The machines started easily when brand new;
They wouldn't have become idolized icons if they hadn't.

Declaring components to be obsolete, and therefore the root of modern problems might spare some egos, but it is far from the truth.

6v systems work great.

'Old-fashioned' carbs work great.

BIG cylinders work REALLY great.

In fact, the whole old-fashioned farm implement worked great for generations.

It yours don't,... don't re-invent the wheel... just fix it!

...Cotten

[john HD]

45 brit

cannot disagree more!

if it takes more than a couple of kicks there is something wrong with it.

when panheads are tuned up and running properly the are quite docile and easy to live with.

usually i find the rubber manafold adaptor to my non stock carb has failed. and almost always on a sunday when my local shop is closed! air leaks cause more starting/running problems than any one thing OTHER than a bad set of points and condensor!

that is why i am changing it back to totally stock with a linkert this winter. i have had all sorts of parts on my bike since i got it as a screwed up half finished chopper. every time i have made a change back twards the original design it has run better and become more reliable.

i guess what it comes down to is the fact i get less tolerant of errant machinery as i get older. i have to think the guys in milwaukee knew more than i thought when i find the original design works best.

now if i can only figure out why my snow blower constantly will not start and leaks gas everywhere! (also made in milwaukee!) perhaps i can bolt my CV carb to it and make it a chopper!

john

[FlatHeadSix]

well said John!

My '49 FL was the same way when I got it and it spent most of its time in the barn while I rode the flatheads. I absolutely could not ride it anyplace unless I knew it would sit long enough to cool off completely. They ain't fun if they don't run!

The "big fix" was replacing the original oil-can hydraulic push rods with a set of solids, now it starts all the time, anytime. And I think its actually quieter with the solids.

Like Cotten said, they started just fine when they were new. The solid push rods and lifters are just like anything else, you have to install them correctly and include them in your routine maintenance and they won't give you any problems.

I have found very few exceptions to the quality of the original design and assembly but those hydraulic push rods were definitely a mistake. Fortunately replacing them with solids is a drop in fix and does not require major surgery to accomplish. Cheap and easy and man, what a difference!

mike

[59Panman]

Should I be looking to go with solids after my hydraulic lifters wear out on my '59 FLH? Please educate me on this subject as I have heard so many replies on what is best. Were the hydraulic lifters a problem only on certain years?

[FlatHeadSix]

Ozwick,

The early pan engines had adjustable mechanical lifters with hydraulic self-adjusting units built into the top of the push rod. They looked like little oil cans or bulges at the very top of the push rod. It was a bad experiment because they never got enough oil to really function properly and they wore out rapidly. They would leak down quickly when hot and the result was that the valves would not open when trying to kick a hot engine, compression built up to the point that a 400 pound guy couldn't kick the engine over using both feet!

As pan engines evolved and were equipped with real hydraulic lifters things got much better. The late pans which were designed for true hydraulics and had factory oil passages to supply oil to them are fine with either OEM type or any number of replacement hydraulic lifters.

The comments I made, as well as what Cotten added, refer to the early engines. It is definitely not a good idea to modify an early engine to provide oil passages to feed late model lifters. The best solution for the early engines is solid push rods on top of the original adjustable mechanical lifters. Engines that were made for hydraulic lifters should get new hydraulic lifters when the old ones wear out.

just my experience,

mike

[45brit]

I'm with flatheadsix about letting it cool down completely, that's my experience of them. I've had two over the years and they both had severe problems starting from warm; cold, ok; hot, ok; warm, no.

but, I grew up on big ol' Brit bikes and they have a thing called a valve lifter, which is sooooo handy. Panthers have 600cc or 650cc cylinders and start second kick, so do some Nortons and BSAs.

both mine had solids, for what it's worth.

I've also had two shovels, both with leccy foot, and they were much better, first punch start every time. One had a Bendix, one had a Mikuni and I had no problems with either.

I certainly don't agree about 6v electrics. The lights on my first pan were like a glow-worm in a beer bottle. Even Miller lights were better


agree about flatheads though. Start easy and run smooth. I'm building a stroked flathead with 12v electrics, proper carb, 4-speed British transmission and belt primary drive as my bike to keep for my old age!

[fourthgear]

Shovelheads run better with solids too! If you are going to replace your hyd. , go to Jim's or Crane or the like , the OEM type are not reliable enough to me .They still have pumping up problems or collapsing when starting or a combo of each , which makes starting a problem .
I'm not one of those who believe the Co. made every thing perfect, there are more things out there to make your Pan run better and more efficient in starting and running. As was said , its all about tuning and maintenance. The older machines require tender loving care once in a while , unlike the fire and forget newer machines of today.

[FlatHeadSix]

John's snowblower.....

Those big block chevies can be hard to start when the temp drops down around zero but when this bad boy gets wound up it'll throw snow all the way to Canada.