Lifters collapse after getting hot on 64 FL

[1964FLDUO]

I have been dealng with a problem where my lifters collapse and start tapping after the bike gets hot. The engine was completely rebuilt(dont ask how much that cost) and the first set of lifters would start tapping after 15 minutes of running using 20-50 oil. I took it back to the mechanic and after re adjusting them several times, he conceded the lifters were the problem and replaced them. The new lifters seemed to work fine until I rode it for about 45 minutes and sure enough it started tapping. He then told me to switch to straight 60 weight, because 20-50 was too thin, which I did. Now it starts tapping everytime I ride at around 45-55 minutes in, usually when you are stopped at a intersection even if only for 15-30 seconds. they seem to pump back up when you get the rpms up but only while the rpms are up. On start up the motor has 55+ psi oil pressure and no tapping, I am running Andrews J grind cam which is pretty mild. Havent got a temp reading on the oil yet. The pinion shaft is still the stock type. I am about ready to swutch to solids. Any ideas?

[old1955]

G'day 64FLDuo

I have heard of a couple of cases now where Andrews J grinds have seemingly been a problem with Hydraulic lifters. Now, that sad! Its
just what I have read, I'm running 3 pans with 3 J grinds, 2 have hydraulic and the third, has just been converted back to hydraulics,
but I haven't run the motor just yet, but will within the next couple of days. And there are good reports of many other J grinds all running OK with hydraulics
But there seems to be a few that "setup some sort of phantom harmonics" that may kill the Hydraulic lifters."Phantom harmonics" maybe thats abit
of stretch there, but is strange it works with some and not others.

OK lets say, It's a bit of a mystery!

Just so you got somewhere to go, a suggestion : Try another cam, preferably a stock FL or a stock FLH cam, but any other cam would do that is
designed to run with Hydraulics. You may find this is a problem solver. Also make sure you have good quality hydraulic lifters have been used
in your motor.

Till you find that cam, I would put the solids in. Then that stops the worry and you can get some riding in before it gets too cold.
Down here its just getting hot.

Do a search here on "Hydraulic Lifter" you'll see the comments of a guy with the same problem in a shovel, and a pan.

Pete

[58flh]

I have installed J cams in quite a few motors that are running HYD. lifters!--No problems!--I have a J in mine & im running solids!--No problems!---I would check the lifters & GUIDES!, If you have excessive play between lifter & guide Thats a PROB.--Also I have heard not seen, that the big AXLE rollers tend to have HYD. lifter bleed down issues!--The 60WT oil should be fine!--Even the 20W50 Is Good!. Check to see that lifters are CLEAN & pull the Witches hat out & CLEAN IT & BLOW-OUT with COMPRESSOR!.--If you find you have excess clearence in guide to lifter you can order oversize lifters to have a nice fit!--ALUM guide-blocks are not the best, I use Iron ones in mine!--They take abuse longer & dont wearout fast like ALUM. ones!--Also if your idle is to low ,Lifters will bleed down!-(900 to 1000RPM) is GOOD! with 900RPM preferred!. If you find you need new lifters OEM style lifters are good!--Aftermarket ones that I deal with are JAMES, They make GOOD PRODUCTS!--Also check the oil-holes that feed the lifters threw the blocks!--Make sure they line-up correctly & dont have to be opened-up a few thous.! For better flow.-(more oil).--I have seen aftermarket guides after they are tightened down ,the feed hole does not match-up exactly,& therefore less oil to pass threw!. Just some things to look at while you have it apart!--You said that they pump-up with RPM!--So Im leaning towards lifter to guide fitment! To loose will do that!, As would the other things you should check!--Also The J cam runs great with SOLIDS!---The J is almost Identical to a FLH cam!--It has more lift-.425 in a pan & the duration is similar!--But The J cams Duration I like better.-Just my preference!--Its a good cam with a wide tourque-range!--1500 to Whatever!-So if your turning 3500RPM at 65 Shes happy there & you can be at 90 in an eyeblink!,when you have to pass somebody!--GOOD EVERYDAY RIDING CAM!---GOOD-LUCK---RICHIE

[kevock1950]

By any chance are your pushrods correct?

The reason I ask is Ive seen this happen in a Pan motor where the owner (me) accidentally installed Shovel pushrods. Since the upper ball of the pushrod is different on Shovel-style rods, after 30 miles or so, tappets were starting to tick and lash was then excessive. I constantly re-adjusted them only to find out the pushrods were NOT Panhead pushrods, but Shovelhead!

Its worth a check...

[PanPal]

I had similar problems in the begining of my time with my 59. As said, run 60w oil. if you are adjusting pushrods 3.5 turns after zero lash, try another 1/2 turn. Run the idle slightly on the high side, lobing will cause other issues also. I put the later style tappet screen in and lost the cartridge screen set up. Its pretty restrictive from the looks of it. Check your timing too if it's retarded you may be heating up the motor. Also watch what you do at stop lights. Give the throttle a blip now and again to keep the oil flow up.

The J is almost Identical to a FLH cam!--It has more lift-.425 in a pan

With slightly higher lift, is there a chance the feed holes in the bore of tappet blocks are blocked slighly longer which may be why it happens at the lower rpm when oil flow is lower?

The shame of this is, I have a build not yet even broken in, I choose the J grind but run the entire jims big axil set up. It was pricey, I have aluminum tappet blocks, aluminum pushrods and the big axil rollers. As said it's not even broken in and I feel I should yank the works and put the original set up back on. Money wasted........

[1964FLDUO]

Thanks for all of the replies. I will start checking some of the things you guys suggested after I get my bike back out. I have it put away while I remodel my house. As far as the cam, I do have an original FL cam in pretty good condition that I could run, but I will leave that until I check everything else.

[1964FLDUO]

Guys, I finally had the chance to take the bike out and do some diagnostics, sorry for the hold up. Heres what I have got so far:
When I got back from the ride I let it idle for about 15- 30 secs before it began to tap, the oil temp was 172 degrees, the oil pressure gauge was reading zero

The tapping starts when the oil is right around 160 degrees (farenheit)
At that temp the oil pressure gauge is pegged at zero, it does not go up when you blip the throttle, but it does if you hold it open at 3000-4000RPMs

I rode 20 miles mainly flat land varying speeds, no traffic, half of the ride was highway cruising at 50 mph, the other half was back roads speeds varying from 25 to 40 mph not many stops.
I stopped twice during the ride for about 15 min to let the bike cool down, the second time I stopped it was beginning to tap.

[indianut]

Like was said....check the bore of the lifter block!

[1964FLDUO]

Didnt want to pull the lifter block just yet, but I'll have a look.

[Huck]

A completely rebuilt engine has zero oil pressure? If everything was in spec something had to be assembled incorrectly. Does it have good flow back to the tank? The lifters were rechecked to the bores? Pinion bushing fit .0005-.0012 if it’s too loose it’s going to dump allot of oil in the gear case. The pump just flows oil the restriction down stream builds pressure. No restriction = no pressure. I’m surprised the guy that built it doesn’t have it back on his bench.

[1964FLDUO]

Everything was supposed to be checked, but whether it was supposed to be or whether it was checked is only known to the guy who was supposed to do the checking. I too am baffled why it is not back on his workbench, but having taken it back to him over five times and ending up with a new set of lifters that still tap seems screwed to me. Oh and as far as the zero oil pressure he insists thats normal when they get hot(bs if you ask me, I know they get low pressure when hot, but not zero) Thats the kind of service you get for over three grand now a days I suppose. Last time I pay anyone to build a motor based on having a good reputation, and having been in business for years. Anymore it seems like 99 percent of the guys who "work on" old bikes wouldn't know what standing behind your work meant if it hit em in the face.

[Larry]

My 1956 Hydraglide with original lower end, original oil pump, and many tens of thousands of miles, gets 30+ psi at road speed when hot. 15-20 at idle. "Zero" is unacceptable.

[58flh]

HEY GUYS!--Been out of the loop for awhile here in NJ!--Anyway---My feelings are you can put 3 different guages & you will have 3 diff. readings!--OIL-TEMP. in the 170 degree area should not be giving you difficulty!. IDLE & 0 PRESSURE, dont by it untill you pull the return & look whats spitting back to the tank!--IF its flowing its good!. The J cams work nice both with HYD. or solids!. Also I agree with you!--5 times on the bench & still no answer as to your bleed-downs!--You may have to take this into your garage & check!!!--I would start with lifter bore clearence & look at the feed-holes when those blocks are tightened down!--You should have no obstructions!--HALF-HOLE ETC., If they were new check the alignment!--I have seen halfmoons before & that will slow the feed for-sure!--GOOD-LUCK!---RICHIE

[PanPal]

Good to hear from you Richie. Does this mean your area now has power again? We have several neighbors with kids still back home do to flooding and power outages in NY and Jersey.

[58flh]

PANPAL---How are you?----Yea we got power restored like the 4th day after, cable & internet took a week, But I just got lucky!--2 blocks over there still dead!--I have been draggin cuttin & humpin giat oaks that just toppled over like nothing, really amazing at the power of that wind!---That crane in NYC- Is just one of the type of tools im very familiar with! in my trade. It has a 500 ton counterweight cabability, I dont know from the pics how much they had on it!--But if they were topped out on that job I assume it was close!, & it flipped it with an upper draft!--If you look close ,Theres 2 units of the latticework still holding All the rest is CABLE-SUPPORTED!---That tower is toast ,theyll save the computer & cab, But will bring in 2 500 ton boom-cranes & oxy that right off!--(millions to the scrap-heap!)-Its been compromised,It did what it was supposed to do! It stayed up!--I have been pumpin-water where needed to,Its all we could at this point!---Richie---Nice to get a chance to LOOK-SEE on the site for a few!