Oil leaks from pushrods tubes too much oil? solid lifters

[SeaHag]

I just got running a 54 Pan project and it has solid lifters and pushrods. I have an aftermarket higher volume oil pump with no name, I think it's a Sifton or similar clone with wider than stock gears. It gets about 30lbs oil pressure cold and drops to 0 at idle when hot and about 2-3 if I rev it. I'm not worried about the low oil pressure, that's fine, when I look in the oil tank it's pumpin' lots of oil back in. I think my low pressure is because of the cylinders/heads expanding from heat and I have aluminum pushrods so the play gets more and lots of oil runs down the pushrods from the ends of the rocker arms and back down into the pushrod tubes. The pump works good and everything is getting lots of oil but... It's blowing oil out the bottom of the pushrod tubes, I think from crankcase pressure? It's bubbling and spurting and making a mess. I'm not here to argue about cork versus rubber gaskets. I don't think I need that much oil in the pushrod tubes. I'm just wondering what that hole is in the tappet lifter block for? I mean the one right under the tube gasket. Isn't that pressurized oil feed to the lifters? Or is it a drain hole back down into the case? My engine is not apart now so I can't look at the parts. If that's oil feed then where does the oil in the pushrod tubes return back to the case? I think with my solid lifter/pushrods I don't need tons of oil in the pushrod tubes. I've heard of people recommending to block oil feed to the lifter blocks but I don't want to do that. Isn't that necessary to lube the tappets and drip down onto the cam? I just want to limit the amount of oil coming out of the rocker arm. I'm thinking of doing this oil mod to the rocker blocks to limit the amount of oil going thru the rocker arm.

http://www.jockeyjournal.com/forum/show ... hp?t=22310" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You guys think this is a good idea? I do. I'm just afraid I might get too high oil pressure and start leaking elsewhere.

Also, I don't really care about high oil pressure. That will just make it burst out everywhere there's a joint. It makes some people feel good to see the needle on the gauge go high but I don't care as long as it's running all over everything. My oil is flowing fine all over the parts, actually too good and it's still low pressure. That's because it's all coming out the ends of the rocker arms. I need to drain it back to the case faster or limit the amount to the rockers.

[58flh]

I really dont think you have to block anything in the rockers!,--Check your venting!,Also your pump may have a port for the scavenge to move more!--IF you have anything but CORK in them tubes ITS GONNA LEAK!--Since you have solids you dont need to run the witches hat in the system!--Also you can go to a weaker spring & checkvalve So that much isnt moved to the top!--Pans never had a topend oiling problem!--Y-use a 1/2 inch copper pipe coming out the breather & neck it down to a 1/4 & let that piece blow right on your rear chain. All should be good!--(Remember you dont need alot of press. from the oilpump! I have been running a stock for 25+yrs. & never had a problem!---Richie Another thing you can do is Polish the inside of head & chamfer the returns a little, It will help move more oil down!,,Also are the tubes in good shape & blocks for that matter to!--IF both are good-I would try the obvious first!-USE CORKS & PUT a Lighter spring in the pump!---GOOD,LUCK----RICHIE And Good VENTING of coarse!,Check the output of your aftermarket pump!--Get a manual for it!!!!!,Your answer is close! SEAHAG when looking thru the pumps manual,-remember the BY-PASS spring!!

[Panhead Ed]

The oiling system diagram was recently posted and is availible in the tech section here,, find it and study it untill you understand it ! then look at you problem again with clear eyes... I think your confused as to the direction of flow..... breather timming is important , check it... Ed

[steve_wood]

Seahag,

Richie mentioned it, but it deserves emphasis.

Check your venting

- Is the vent line from the crankcase right above the oil pump venting back into the oil tank?

- Is the vent/oil drip going that lubricates the primary chain working? (you'll have to take off the primary cover to check)

[Huck]

That hole under the cork where your tubes rest is the drain hole, make sure it's open. The hole at the other end is small, on shovels its much bigger. I'd think the mother ship made the change for good reason. The feed comes up thru the base of the lifter block to feed hydraulic lifters. The fit between the lifter and the block should basically dead head that oil feed. If you can wiggle the lifters in the bore wet they are too loose. Make sure the case vent is blowing. 2 bits, no charge. PS take the timing plug out, it'll blow your hat off if it's not venting.

[RUBONE]

There are a variety of scenarios that can create pushrod tube leaks. All the common ones are related to pressure and not to gaskets/seals/corks. The oil return on Panheads is down the head casting and into the crankcase via the drain hole in the cylinder. Any excess pressure in the cases can create a situation where the oil is pushed back up by pressure. A head gasket blown between the cylinder and drain hole will cause pressure into the heads creating a pressure issue. Blockage of any drain passages as well. Panheads can generally handle any upgrade pump with no issues. They drain the same way Shovelheads do and the big pumps were stock on them. There are also many thousands of Panheads with solid lifters and no modifications to the oiling system to compensate. They work fine with them.
If the oil is "bubbling" at the tube seal, the engine is pressurizing for some reason. That joint is the simplest means of escape!
Robbie

[SeaHag]

The oil return on Panheads is down the head casting and into the crankcase via the drain hole in the cylinder.

That's for everything else coming out the rocker block besides what comes out the end of the rockers at the pushrod right? What about the oil that comes out the end of the rocker arm? That too? doesn't that oil go down the pushrod tubes? And if it's going in the tubes more with a higher volume oil pump couldn't you have a situation where it's pumping oil in the tubes faster than it can drain? S&S recommends blocking oil feed to tappets when using solids "to prevent leaks". How much oil could be coming from there? It's a tight fit. I think more would be coming out the rockers. It's a big gaping hole where the tappet bore is a tight fit. Maybe the designers wanted to "insure" the hydralic lifters didn't collapse, better too much oil and leak than collapse a lifter. But with solids I don't need all that oil in there. Don't really need any oil pumping into the tubes at all. The pushrod just sits in the lifter, no friction and the top barely rubs the rocker arm and would get enough from the mod. I've also heard about drilling the drain hole larger to 1/8". That couldn't hurt right? But if I do this mod there wouldn't be lots of oil in the tubes so the stock hole would be fine.
I think high volume oil pumps are overrated and unnecessary. A good way to scare someone into forking over 400 bucks though. At first I freaked when cruising and looked at the gauge and it was at 0. It was 30 at start up. But it was still pumping just fine. It would be nice to see at least a few pounds just to know the pump is still working. I don't know the maker of my pump, it's just some generic no-name thing I got used but it works good except for the check ball leaks (of course). I allready spent a lot of time on the checkball. All looks fine and I got a new ball, tapped it lightly, followed all suggestions but still leaks into the case. I think the balls may be poor quality and maybe not perfectly round. What about an inline valve to turn off feed from the oil tank when parked long periods? Just turn it on everytime like the gas.

My venting seems fine. I'll pull the timing plug when I get a chance a see. I lined all the timing marks up perfectly. There's no chain oiler, it's a belt drive. Case vents to atmosphere thru a breather filter.

[SeaHag]

Lighter spring in the pump!

Which one? On the checkball? Wouldn't that let oil seep into the case easier? Doesn't the pump have to overcome that pressure to pump oil into the motor? The other one is the heavier one in the taller tower furthest outboard to the right. I believe that one is to oil the bottom end then if the pressure there builds high enough it lifts a metal slug inside opening another passage to the top end, or vice versa.

Check the output of your aftermarket pump!--Get a manual for it!!!!!,Your answer is close!

Oh it's pumping fine, lots of return coming into the tank. Don't know the maker but they all operate about the same right? I think the answer is I'm pumping too much oil and the seals are rubber O rings which would be fine if there wasn't so much oil in there. Tubes are in perfect shape and flat on the bottom. With the heavy pushrod tube springs squishing the O-ring hard against the bottom that should be fine under normal conditions. It's real hard to compress the tube springs to put the spring cap retainer in. Don't have any reason to pump tons of oil into the pushrod tubes. There's nothing in there that needs that much oil.

SEAHAG when looking thru the pumps manual,-remember the BY-PASS spring!!

Is that the heavier one in the taller tower? Ya I think if I put a heavier one in it will take more pressure before it feeds the top end if I understand it right. I think that and the cork gaskets would be the easiest fix first.

Ya now looking back I would just use a stock pump but I think there's this misconception that the higher the oil pressure the better you are taking care of your bike, not true. And I used to think it too.

[SeaHag]

The oiling system diagram was recently posted and is availible in the tech section here,, find it and study it untill you understand it ! then look at you problem again with clear eyes... I think your confused as to the direction of flow..... breather timming is important , check it... Ed

Ya I know the oil system, it's a straight shot to the rocker arms with no restrictions and a big hole in the end of the arm where lots of oil comes out into the pushrod tubes and yes some comes out the ends of the arms from the journals getting oil and that runs back down thru the drain hole into the case. And I have a higher than stock volume oil pump that I probably really don't need, especially with solid lifters/pushrods. What more can I check about the breather timing than making sure the marks are lined up when you put the gears in? It's a fresh build and the screen was clean.

[SeaHag]

After you guys got me thinking I took another look and whoever built this engine used rubber O-rings as the lower seals. This being my first Panhead I didn't know any better and thought it would be ok and that's what you were supposed to use. Now I know it's not ok. Once I get the right square kind of seals all should be good. Thanks for the help.

[58flh]

SEAHAG----GUAGES are best left on the shelf for paperweights!--I cant tell you how many times a bike was brung in cause its reading 0 or 3lbs. at op-temps!---All guages vary to!+ they -suck always got you looking down with that worry all the time!,Kinda like texting today.You did the right thing!--Look in the BAG --& see that pump move!oil.--The guage is a crutch!----Richie

[Larry]

Oil returning to the tank proves that oil is circulating from the feed pump to the scavenge pump.

[SeaHag]

SEAHAG----GUAGES are best left on the shelf for paperweights!--I cant tell you how many times a bike was brung in cause its reading 0 or 3lbs. at op-temps!---All guages vary to!+ they -suck always got you looking down with that worry all the time!,Kinda like texting today.You did the right thing!--Look in the BAG --& see that pump move!oil.--The guage is a crutch!----Richie

I think they are good, it's more information, helps me to understand what was going on in my engine. They're good if you know what to expect and how to read them and know not to expect high numbers with solids when hot. But for people who don't you're right, they can use the "idiot" light. If you see the pressure degrading at cold over the years you can tell your pump's wearing out. I guess with the light it would just flicker more, just another information device. You can also see the different pressures with different weight oils. I think they're helpful, more info than just the light. It's cool to see it at 30 when cold then go to 0 at hot, you'd never know that without the gauge. That's because the iron cylinder expands more than the aluminum push rod making more play at the end. So with solid valve train you get more gap at top of pushrods when hot where oil escapes the rocker arms into the tubes. I don't know how much but would expect probably a few thousandths. I guess that's why they invented hydraulics, to take up the slack. And with all four going at once no wonder there's no oil pressure, it's like four spigots dumping oil into the tubes all at once. But who cares, everything is drenched in oil. It's like watering your yard with a hose, there's no pressure in the hose cuz it's all coming out the end but your yard is getting watered good. Running straight 50 wt. by the way.
It depends whether you're using solid or hydrualic lifters. With hydraulics if it takes up the slack and keeps the pushrod hard up against the rocker cup then not so much oil would come out into the tubes to leak, but with solids there's more play at the end when hot. Can't wait to get my new seals. It runs pretty damn good, got Linkert M74B and Dyna single fire electronic ignition. Kinda sputs and misfires a little when going easy on the throttle but goes good if I gas it. But I'm in the break in period so I don't want to go hard on her yet. Need to dial in the carb still maybe.

[PanPal]

oil pressure has nothing to do with your pushrods. With Hydraulics the pressure does the same thing but the hydraulics collapse when it gets too hot.

[SeaHag]

oil pressure has nothing to do with your pushrods.

Why would you say that? It certainly does. The only three places where there is resistance to flow is the rocker ends, tappets, and the pinion shaft and pinion shaft and tappet tolerance doesn't change much with temp. When the gap between the four pushrods and rocker arms gets bigger from thermal expansion of the cylinders there's less resistance to flow and your pressure drops. Isn't that the purpose of hydraulics? To expand and take up that gap and keep it "quieter"? But they bleed down quickly you're saying?

From this website I found;
http://www.floheadworks.com/Products/Hy ... %20Kit.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Because they’re air cooled, Harley engines “grow” with increasing temperature. A solid-lifter street-ridden Harleys on pump gas will grow as much as .060" between the camshaft and the rocker shaft at 350-degree head temperature."

Wow! that's way more than I thought. .060" is about 1/16" (.0625). That's where all the oil pressure is lost. But who cares, everything is still getting oiled. But too much oil can make a mess and sealing challenges. And could cause your light to flicker. Also solid pushrods don't require a constant flow of oil like hydraulics. The oil requirements are completely different for each. So why have tons of oil flowing thru the tubes for solids? Why does a solid valve train need so much oil? It doesn't. That site also makes a good point that with that big gap your pushrod is not opening the valve as much = loss of horsepower. Maybe hydraulics are better.