Dual Points Question

[jon1]

Hello all.
I need better brains than what's rolling around in my skull.
Here is my dilemma and question. My bike seems to lose power going up a hill or under load almost feels like vapor lock.
I checked normal stuff (IE) manifold leak, trash in carb, gas caps.
Plugs look great in my opinion.
So I decided to check the points and condensers...….And now here is my Question.
With my test light grounded and bike running on"both cylinders" I notice that when I touch the points for the front cylinder with the test light, the light illuminates and stays lit. However when I touch the rear cylinder, it grounds and will kill the motor if I held it to the points. It does the same with the new and old points and condenser.
Is this normal?
My points are set at 22/1000.
Thanks for insight and experience......Jon

[Lowbikemike]

Which side of the points are you touching with your test light? Lead wire in or on the ground side?

[jon1]

lead wire

[jon1]

Which side of the points are you touching with your test light? Lead wire in or on the ground side?

lead wire

[guppymech]

Do you have the correct individual ignition coils? ref '61-'64 wiring diagram.
5B Electrical - 1961 - 1964 Duo-Glide Wiring Diagram

[panhead_kicker]

Hi Jon,
What do you hope to see using a test lamp in the timer while the motor is running? I assume you mean basically a bulb wired on a test clip?
Also, the gap of the points for the rear cylinder should not be arbitrarily set.

[RooDog]

A test light a the coil or the points should have identical readings. Also that TL would be in parallel with the points, come on when the one set of points is open, and go out when that set is closed, with the engine not running, key on. I would expect the engine to miss with the test light in parallel, in series it would flicker, On with the points closed, and Of when they're open but the engine should still run.
Personally, for practical application, there is no valid reason for the dual coil setup other than if one were stuck on originality. The factory chose not to carry on with them once they went to 12 volts.

[jon1]

Do you have the correct individual ignition coils? ref '61-'64 wiring diagram.

Yes, it has two coils which are the original to the bike. I am the 2nd owner. The bike was disassembled in 1974. I rebuilt it last year.

[jon1]

Hi Jon,
What do you hope to see using a test lamp in the timer while the motor is running? I assume you mean basically a bulb wired on a test clip?
Also, the gap of the points for the rear cylinder should not be arbitrarily set.

I would assume the same results, either both burning or both stalling the motor. My assumption is that both should stall the motor. Both points are currently set at 22, which is what my manual says is the correct point gap. however , I going to reduce the gap to 18 to see if this makes a difference.

[jon1]

A test light a the coil or the points should have identical readings. Also that TL would be in parallel with the points, come on when the one set of points is open, and go out when that set is closed, with the engine not running, key on. I would expect the engine to miss with the test light in parallel, in series it would flicker, On with the points closed, and Of when they're open but the engine should still run.
Personally, for practical application, there is no valid reason for the dual coil setup other than if one were stuck on originality. The factory chose not to carry on with them once they went to 12 volts.

I agree, And Thank you. I had expected to see the same results on both sets of points. With motor not running, the test light comes on when I open the points, but with the motor running, the test light comes on, On the front cylinder, but try's to stall the motor on the rear cylinder, with no light.
what I find strange is that both cylinders are firing and running.

[Lowbikemike]

Hi Jon,
What do you hope to see using a test lamp in the timer while the motor is running? I assume you mean basically a bulb wired on a test clip?
Also, the gap of the points for the rear cylinder should not be arbitrarily set.

I would assume the same results, either both burning or both stalling the motor. My assumption is that both should stall the motor. Both points are currently set at 22, which is what my manual says is the correct point gap. however , I going to reduce the gap to 18 to see if this makes a difference.

Re-read Panhead Kickers post. The rear cylinder points are not set arbitrarily to .022 or .018. Use the procedure in the factory service manual.

[jon1]

Hi Jon,
What do you hope to see using a test lamp in the timer while the motor is running? I assume you mean basically a bulb wired on a test clip?
Also, the gap of the points for the rear cylinder should not be arbitrarily set.

I would assume the same results, either both burning or both stalling the motor. My assumption is that both should stall the motor. Both points are currently set at 22, which is what my manual says is the correct point gap. however , I going to reduce the gap to 18 to see if this makes a difference.

Re-read Panhead Kickers post. The rear cylinder points are not set arbitrarily to .022 or .018. Use the procedure in the factory service manual.

I guess I'm not following you. As it stands, both points are set at .022. They have not been set arbitrarily or wilily Nellie. I've read many other post on this website and even this post regarding dual points, people are seeing improved results by narrowing the gap. Is this due to using new style points, verses OEM, or is it different capacitors or is it something else. How will I know if I do not try? I'm no expert as this is my first bike build ever, and I'm not hung up on Gap if changing the gap gives me improved results. My question still stands as to why I'm not getting the same results with the test light on both sets of points. Is the plate grounded differently, Do I have a short in a wire, is different results expected because there not in series? All I want to know is has anyone experienced this or Why? Is it bad capacitor or Coil? Too many questions arise from this one anomaly I've noticed.

[RUBONE]

Regarding dual point timers on H-Ds. The points gap is NEVER the same on both sets of points. The design is flawed a bit, so in order for the timing on both cylinders to be correct, the gaps are not equal. The only way to correct the rear cylinder timing is to change the points gap so that points opening occurs at the correct time. And the cylinder TIMING is the important part. There are ways to correct dual point timers but they require a bit of modification to work correctly. When done right they are the best system ever (no lost spark). The important part of the system (the dwell angle) is dramatically different in the factory design. Basically why they went back to a single point /single dual post coil in later bikes.

[jon1]

Regarding dual point timers on H-Ds. The points gap is NEVER the same on both sets of points. The design is flawed a bit, so in order for the timing on both cylinders to be correct, the gaps are not equal. The only way to correct the rear cylinder timing is to change the points gap so that points opening occurs at the correct time. And the cylinder TIMING is the important part. There are ways to correct dual point timers but they require a bit of modification to work correctly. When done right they are the best system ever (no lost spark). The important part of the system (the dwell angle) is dramatically different in the factory design. Basically why they went back to a single point /single dual post coil in later bikes.

Thanks for the input. What I did when setting up was to bring the front cylinder mark on the flywheel to 1/4 the window and set front points to .022 while checking to make sure I was at TDC. Then I rotated the motor to the same point on the rear and set those to .022 as well. As I mentioned earlier, i'm new to this and learning by manuals and other peoples experience.
The bike cranks 99% of the time on cold motor on the first kick after 3 prime kicks. I can retard distributor fully and the bike lopes very slow, but never stalls completely.
My problem is that there is a miss, or hesitation occasionally and it seems more prevalent on an incline or under load.
I just replaced plugs, which looked very good in my opinion, points and condensers.
This is when I noticed the Test light anomaly.
The bike didn't get any better with those changes.
I have sprayed both WD 40 and Carb cleaner around intake manifold with no change in idle.
I have gas leaking out of my left cap currently, so I know its not vapor locked, and Ive taken the caps off while acting up to see if there was any change.
I do not know how both cylinders are running/firing yet different results with the timing light.
I went outside in the garage a little while ago and started the bike in pitch black to see if I could see any random spark on any visible wires, spark plug, generator, distributor coils etc.. Nothing visible or noticeable.
The reason I keep going back to the timing light issue is that I reused the original 1963 wiring harness, and I feel this may be the weak link.
On a side note, Ive also adjusted H side jet and retarded spark at different times when ive experienced the issues with performance with no improvements noted.
I have a linkert Carb, that I initially cleaned, then took to a well known pan mechanic for a rebuild with no improvements.

[awander]

You need to set the points gap with the points fully open, not with reference to the timing mark on the flywheel.

The timing mark should be used to set the timing; the points should be just beginning to open when the flywheel mark is in the right spot in the window.