Auto advance timer flyweight roll pins

[panhandler]

some of you may know I've been tearing my hair out with running problems on my 63. You name it I've experienced it and most of it started when I went to STD heads in 2008. I had an idle problem that would cause the bike to spit and die in the carb. Test for intake leaks (shovel intake with S&S E) proved negative. I have checked all electrics with same result. I have run an aftermarket (yes, Taiwan) auto advance timer on this bike for 20 years and until 2008 it ran quite decently.

The main problem is warm idling, usually cold starts are ok, but after a highway ride, coming back into town it would often spit in the carb at a light and die. Sometimes it was extremely hard to get started again (kicker only). I'm not new to the wrenching game and have been twisting on this girl since day one. I recently pulled the heads, replaced the gaskets with James blue Teflon, torqued and retorqued.

Carb was just given a major rebuild kit, new blue streak points and condenser. But the problem still exists off and on to the point I am so gunshy I'm afraid to take the thing anywhere, some of you know the feeling (I've ridden this girl before the problems to LA and back thru the Mojave).

I'm trying to eliminate things and today I called tech support at S&S. I explained the ins and outs to the guy and he said they had discovered a lot of idling probs with the shovels and pans were related to the flyweight roll pins not being heavy enuff and suggested I go to a heavier pin.

Ok, is this just chasing the wind again, or has anyone else found this to be their prob? I would love any and all suggestions cause I'm ready to lock the door on this girl.

regards,
Keith

[1951 adam]

Sounds like a lean condition to me. I guess your referring to the springs for the auto advance? And using a heavier spring.?
Anytime I've seen a bike spit thru carb, it's due to a lean condition. I don't love S&S carbs , especially on a pan, are you using the STD shovel type heads? I'd put it on a dyno with a sniffer in the tail pipe , get it hot and see what's going on.
Is the bowl venting?
Adam

[panhandler]

he specifically said the roll pins, I've never heard of this. He said the roll pins are too light and therefore not throwing the weights far enough or fast enuff. Said putting in heavy roll pins cures the idle problem. I agree it does sound lean, but I've dialled everything in and I'm not showing any lean thru pipes or plugs. I've been running this S&S for over 20 years. The heads are pans, but early ones before they started building the regular pan intake ports, so these have the shovel intake and ports and yes they are a bitch to seal, but I've tested them, and they show no leak indication. No indication the bowl is not venting, I am running an oem air cleaner cover with K&N filter so I have removed the bowl vent plug as per S&S recommendation.

I live in the middle of nowhere so a sniffer is not a choice.

arghhh.

Keith

[1951 adam]

I'm pretty sure he meant the springs, pins don't move.
Tech support is not what it used to be.....
Adam

[kitabel]

Taking your account of his comments as written, he doesn't appear to know how an auto-advance works.
I can see how some mechanical inconsistency may cause the weights not to return to the same position (retard) reliably, but that has nothing to do with the pins.
I would start by wiring it to full advance to remove the A-A from the list of variables.

[Huck]

I just changed the coil on my evo, electronic ignition blah,blah. Much head scratchin & pissin around. And I hate the electronic stuff. It only cut out when idling hot. I’m not above hot wiring things, it eliminates a lot of possibilities and it’s easy to do. Try it. That timer have bushings or bearings, they ok? Lock the advance in one spot and time it, give that a whirl. Don’t lock her down give me the keys, I’ll fix it.

[RUBONE]

One of the old tricks we used to do on auto-advance units was to fit a spring (as I recall it was a Sportster shifter pawl spring) over the roll pins reducing the amount of total advance. Then when timed to the mark at full advance it would keep the unit from retarding as much in the idle position and would keep the carb from spitting back and bikes randomly dieing at idle. The same could be achieved with a larger diameter roll pin, however that would require re-drilling the unit.

[panhandler]

[quote="kitabel"]Taking your account of his comments as written, he doesn't appear to know how an auto-advance works.
I can see how some mechanical inconsistency may cause the weights not to return to the same position (retard) reliably, but that has nothing to do with the pins.
I would start by wiring it to full advance to remove the A-A from the list of variables.[/quote]

I have static tested the weights/springs and they snap back to fully retarded, the timer is brand new but I know these days that is not saying much for these items from across the pond. Can u run me thru on how to accomplish your suggestion of 'wiring it to full advance'? I'm missing you on this.

thanks,
Keith

[panhandler]

[quote="Huck"]I just changed the coil on my evo, electronic ignition blah,blah. Much head scratchin & pissin around. And I hate the electronic stuff. It only cut out when idling hot. I’m not above hot wiring things, it eliminates a lot of possibilities and it’s easy to do. Try it. That timer have bushings or bearings, they ok? Lock the advance in one spot and time it, give that a whirl. Don’t lock her down give me the keys, I’ll fix it. [/quote]

timer is totally mechanical with no bearings, runs off bottom gear same as the oems. as I told Kitabel, the timer is brand new for what that's worth.....yup, I hate electronics as well. So, go with me on this Huck, explain the hot wire routine and how it eliminates possibilities....plus I 've put on three diff coils, and that's ruled out as a problem.

thanks,
Keith

[panhandler]

[quote="RUBONE"]One of the old tricks we used to do on auto-advance units was to fit a spring (as I recall it was a Sportster shifter pawl spring) over the roll pins reducing the amount of total advance. Then when timed to the mark at full advance it would keep the unit from retarding as much in the idle position and would keep the carb from spitting back and bikes randomly dieing at idle. The same could be achieved with a larger diameter roll pin, however that would require re-drilling the unit.[/quote]

I'm not picturing this, can u expand? I'm thinking if the roll pins are joined with a spring, then that would prevent them from advancing fully, but wouldn't it also bring them to full retard and idle? What am I missing?

thanks,
Keith

[Huck]

The coil gets voltage through wire, switch, connections all being grounding possibilities. One wire from the battery to the coil provides clues or eliminates possibilities. I read in the first post a 20 year old timer, the new timer had no effect on the current issue?

[panhandler]

Huck, it seems to run better and longer at warm idle with the new timer, but this is a real gremlin and just when you think you got it, back it comes to bite you in the butt. I have checked all the wiring between tanks from the timer to the coil. I'm running everything thru circuit breakers which would handle any short by cutting out, so I don't think a short is the problem.

The new timer differs from the old in the base that the weights sit on is a permanent part of the timer shaft and can't be removed like the old timer. The cam lobe is secured with an e-clip siding into a slot above the lobe on the shaft, thus making it impossible to 'drift' the difference between front and rear lobe readings (the old timer cam lobe and weights was secured with a bolt that could be drifted to equalize readings).

that mite be as clear as mud, I hope you understand my drift....

[RUBONE]

I'm not picturing this, can u expand? I'm thinking if the roll pins are joined with a spring, then that would prevent them from advancing fully, but wouldn't it also bring them to full retard and idle? What am I missing?

You're right, you aren't following. The spring is MERELY A SLEEVE enlarging the diameter of the pins. It isn't connecting anything. And after installation if the timing is set with the springs in place the full advance is at the same place, but the retard position is not as extreme.

[Huck]

OK, just so you know it’s not a gremlin or evil spirit. You have a fault somewhere, I was just trying advise on how to trouble shoot starting with easy first.
Circuit breakers? Should only be one, the dizzy that’s plugged into the right front of the engine.

[58flh]

Panhandler----I use to run a S&S-E with an auto-adv. timer & had issues that were similar to yours!----I fixed it by Putting in the heavy-springs--But I dont think this had anything to do with the problem!-(It just let me wind more before full-adv. would kick-in.).-Make sure you are CORRECTLY JETTED!.Also You must have VENTING in the carb. to atmosphere!///Make-sure your plugs are INDEXED & copper core wires & NON-Resister plugs!.-If you catch a light & idle ,Is the motor EVEN? or does the Idle RPM bounce some?.If you have a yes to the questions--Heres what I did to solve my issue of stalling,,,,Drop the bowl & Emery the pin that the float rides on!--You be surprised how they get a tight spot when hot & get stuck & stall it will.Also the Viton-tipped needle -Sand the 3-sides that center it in its bore!.-(A little goes along way here!).Finally I closed the gap on my points some /for a smidge more coil saturation & when you pop the points open theres a NICE FAT SPARK!.---I know the manual calls for .022!--My Flh runs way better at .018,,Flh cam and stock motor basically.When your bike is correctly tuned//you should not need the Pumpshooter!--(I ride 2-up alot & have mine just set to dribble ,It makes taking off on a incline much easier!.There was a time when I use to get 7 out of 10 that were good out of the pack!--The other 3-needed pin sanding & needle bore relief!/Just so they would stay running!--Tuning comes after everything else was checked like VAC.-LEAKS/Alot of them!!!.Once you have your E working properly YOU will love it!,They run good on pans with MILD-CAMS/I climb steep-grades in the quarry 2-up without an issue!--The BENDIX I had to drop to 2nd to make the crest!.--good-Luck,,,Respectfully---RICHIE