Pan oil consumption

[northeastconfederate]

I just read the lubrication section of the service manual for '48-'57 Pans which noted normal oil consumption figures, which I think were something like 150 miles/qt. I also noted a change from 4 identical rings per piston to a vented oil ring setup. So, I have a couple of questions.

First, did I read that right about 4 identical rings per piston?

If I did, does that mean there were essentially four compression rings and no oil control rings per piston on '48 and earlier engines?

The manual noted converting '48 rings to newer style rings which sounded more like what I think of as 'normal' top compression ring; a second compression ring; and an oil ring below those two. Is this, in fact, what the "new style" ring sets were?

I suppose the rings were intended to pass oil in order to keep the piston skirts lubed. Is this correct?

When building a Pan motor nowadays, and using modern boring/honing techniques, including torque plates, plateau honing, etc; pistons manufactured with modern alloys and therefore tighter piston to wall clearances, and what I think of as "normal" piston ring configurations, is "normal" oil consumption reduced to modern levels?

I guess along with that, is it normal practice to install valve guide seals on these motors when assembling them? I added seals to my Ironhead stroker motor 25 years ago when I built that, but was not impressed with the seals available for it at that time, nor their performance.

[Raytag]

Coming from the future (shovelhead) therfore no real world experiniecs with Pans
Reg the oem piston ring setup I don`t know anything about it.

Don`t forget that this ole iron is somewhat a total loss system.
With a belt in your primary the numbers should look better.
Tight valveguides will reduce the oil consumption a lot.
Just pressing a seal on a worn guide won`t help you long.
To be honest personally I`m not too impressed with the Harley style tin seals I used on Shovels.
I reckon most here fit exactly those seals and are quite happy
Modern car style seals need machining work on the guides.

Though I`ve no idea about original piston rings I`m pretty sure that any mechanic will fit standard pistons/rings available nowadays.
I gather that most here using standard Hastings cast iron rings with cast piston made in Taiwan. Quite a number of fellas here using forged pistons Wiseco/KB but the choice becomes lesser and lesser
IMHO: Engines with high milages need a very careful, very time consuming inspection many shops are not willing to do.
I guess this is the reason why everyone is telling you to visit a Pan knowing mechanic although basically it is just nuts & bolts.
Whethet you can reduce the oil consumption to modern levels ?
For 2020 Volkswagen/Audi 1 quart/600mls is totally acceptible but I`m 100% postive that any decent Pan engine overhaul will afterwards
look much better than the Volkswagen numbers.

Ray

[RooDog]

As Raytag touched on, the oiling system for the primary chain is a major cause of oil loss in a Panny. Go to a belt drive, and close off the oil feed screw on the oil pump, and the oil mileage should improve.
As for rings, I prefer the Hastings rings with a molly filled top ring, and the three piece , actually 4 counting the expander, oil ring set. Ultimately, a Total Seal system is probably the best.... Pistons are your choice....
....RooDog....

[RUBONE]

"Modern" rings for Panheads were the norm by '55. From '48 to '54 there were many changes to the rings with the biggest being oil rings. And cylinder finish was quite good in those days. Most pans get good oil mileage, the same as Shovelheads as the rings and pistons as well as valve guides were the same for either model. Guide seals were never an issue until the late 70s when H-D was fighting the EPA to be able to continue to exist.

[Frankenstein]

As for actual numbers, on my 3 pans I've owned, mileage ranged from 1000 to 2000/qt. This with rings as per RooDog, no guide seals. I made a 2000+ run, 2 up to Montana and back, over 2K miles on the '62 and never added oil. That was an exceptional machine. An old police bike I was told by the previous owner.
DD

[bangkokbob]

I used Keith Black pistons and Kibblewhite valves and all their valve hardware. Fitted seals and this runs clean with no oil loss.

Modern pistons with their high silicon content should be better than than the originals.

The bike did get 55K miles out of the original standard pistons though.

regards,
B.B.

[northeastconfederate]

Thanks, everyone, for the replies. I was asking in a general way about what to expect, but maybe some details are in order:

My motor is a 1952 which I bought through a shop where I used to work. The motor was totally overhauled for its previous owner, who never completed it. It is in "short block" condition, to use an automotive term: .020" over cylinders and pistons fitted, cam and lifters fitted, but no heads, ignition, intake, etc. The rebuild was done a long time prior to me buying it; and I've had it a long time. I have bare heads for it, STD Pan/Shovel heads, so Pan rockers and rocker covers; Shovel O-ring intake and Shovel exhaust ports with 3-bolt flanges. So, I can do whatever I want vis-a-vis valve guide seals. I don't have guides for the heads yet, so I can get whatever material guides I want, and if necessary, machine for seals.

As for the fellow above claiming 1qt/600mi being "perfectly acceptable" for a VW... I was a Benz tech for 17 years. Benz's official position on "normal" oil consumption is 1 qt per 1,000 miles is normal. But in real life, very few Benz's use anywhere near that much oil. And if they do, something's wrong with the motor, usually stuck oil rings. My Twin Cam, which has had multiple engine configurations, used to puke oil out the air cleaner through the cylinder head breathers from the factory, and two of the subsequent engine configurations that followed, and I know for a fact that the cylinders were bored using torque plates at the same shop that rebuilt my Pan motor. The most recent configuration is 4-1/8" bore, uses S&S cylinders, and was honed to fit my pistons by a different shop, also with torque plates, which 'plateau honed' the cylinders following the normal hone with 220 (or whatever grit) grit stones. The shop owner explained this to me as a final honing step that used very fine stones and essentially knocked the sharp edges off. I'd never heard of it before that, and was apparently a new thing they were doing. I can tell you, this has been VERY EFFECTIVE in making a tightly sealed top end! The bike uses ZERO oil between 5000 mile oil change intervals, at least not any measurable amount on the dipstick. And it doesn't push any oil out the breathers. This with a MUCH bigger bore than stock.

So..... I guess I'm wondering if it's possible to get the same or similar kind of results out of my Pan motor.

[Raytag]

1q/600mls (1000Km) is VW official position and in real life for 10s of thousands engines it is a lot higher. Audi TFSI is a laughing joke and they denied it for many years but of course there was something wrong with the oilring. Audi tried to reinvent the wheel with a 1-piece oilring I sold my Audi as quick as possible because I don`t wanna drive a car with a 2-stroke engine .... and I didn`t have a TFSI engine .This petrol engine smoked liked a ship at the traffic lights but acc to Audi all was well.

Plenty Pros I know say that torque plates are for aluminium cylinders with a steel liner. Many shops say any cylinders with through studs/bolts need torque plates. I personally I agree to both
I do my own boring on the lathe and I always use torque plates on cast iron cylinder. Is it needed? In my limited experience once you aim for an oversize of .05 and more you can measure the difference whether you used torque-plates or not. With torque plates the bore is straight from top to bottom. I`m talking of OS of .05 and more. However this difference with cast iron cylinder is very little and you can measure it in the bottom 1/4 of the cylinder only. It is almost below BTC. Again just my personal experience

Plateau honing isn`t that new and for steel cylinder typical. With cast iron cylinder it is sort of a philosophical discussion. I know some Pro shops who decline plateau honing for cast iron because the hill peaks of the cylinder surface after the final hone will brake in the rings more thorough and so ensuring that all rings do their job but you must break in the rings ... and many lug their new engine to death. Some other shops I know always plateau hone because the modern customer doesn`t want to spend the time breaking in the new bore and rings anymore.
So overhere it`s like that:
Cast iron: some do, some don`t.
Steel liner: Yes.

Ray

[RooDog]

Just to throw another turd in the soup pot, if a motorcycle, any motorcycle, sumps oil on the ground in the morning, the oil mileage is going to be horrible regardless of rings or valve guide seals.
....RooDog....

[northeastconfederate]

Just to throw another turd in the soup pot, if a motorcycle, any motorcycle, sumps oil on the ground in the morning, the oil mileage is going to be horrible regardless of rings or valve guide seals.
....RooDog....

"Turd in the soup"???? Don't invite me for dinner!

I learned about sumping with my '74 Ironhead... Nasty surprise when it spit a quarter oil out the crankcase breather pipe!

[RooDog]

Sorry, I meant Punch Bowl....
....RooDog.....