Manifold clamps, O-rings, and fuel
Forum rules
Please start new topics here: New Panhead and Flathead topics
Please start new topics here: New Panhead and Flathead topics
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6937
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2002 2:30 am
- Bikes: -
- Location: Central Illinois
- Has thanked: 112 times
- Been thanked: 310 times
Manifold clamps, O-rings, and fuel
Hey folks,
Look what fuel does to O-rings!
The top is a fresh V-TWIN O-ring. The bottom was immersed in Shell Premium with ethanol for a day. An O-ring immersed in straight gasoline (Casey's General Stores Regular) also enlarged, but to slightly less of a degree.
Just another reason to avoid over-tightening clamps, and to avoid overkill designs of clamps!
I am not certain if there are other varieties of O-rings still available on the market to test, but I invite others to compare.
....Cotten
Look what fuel does to O-rings!
The top is a fresh V-TWIN O-ring. The bottom was immersed in Shell Premium with ethanol for a day. An O-ring immersed in straight gasoline (Casey's General Stores Regular) also enlarged, but to slightly less of a degree.
Just another reason to avoid over-tightening clamps, and to avoid overkill designs of clamps!
I am not certain if there are other varieties of O-rings still available on the market to test, but I invite others to compare.
....Cotten
- Attachments
-
- Manifold O-ring swollen with fuel
- P4ORING1.jpg (48.14 KiB) Viewed 1548 times
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6937
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2002 2:30 am
- Bikes: -
- Location: Central Illinois
- Has thanked: 112 times
- Been thanked: 310 times
Skip!
Once a clamp has taken a tweak, it seems like they never want to stay straight. (That's why I keep a half-dozen sets on the wall.)
It would appear that clamps get tighter if enough fumes get to the O-ring.
(Or drool from a leaky petcock while the machine is sitting.)
We cannot assume that the swelling would be even around the ring, either!
Everybody must remember that the Factory never held a carb on a machine with the clamps: There was always a support bracket for that.
The clamps merely compressed the O-rings, allowing the assembly to 'float' with thermal expansions and vibration.
The most distressing thing is that regular gas swoll them up too.
So,
Either they always swelled in fuel, or composition of the rings has changed.
Does anyone know of sources of rings that would likely be different?
(I haven't kept my S&S dealer status up to date.)
....Cotten
Once a clamp has taken a tweak, it seems like they never want to stay straight. (That's why I keep a half-dozen sets on the wall.)
It would appear that clamps get tighter if enough fumes get to the O-ring.
(Or drool from a leaky petcock while the machine is sitting.)
We cannot assume that the swelling would be even around the ring, either!
Everybody must remember that the Factory never held a carb on a machine with the clamps: There was always a support bracket for that.
The clamps merely compressed the O-rings, allowing the assembly to 'float' with thermal expansions and vibration.
The most distressing thing is that regular gas swoll them up too.
So,
Either they always swelled in fuel, or composition of the rings has changed.
Does anyone know of sources of rings that would likely be different?
(I haven't kept my S&S dealer status up to date.)
....Cotten
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2677
- Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 8:21 am
- Bikes: '31 VL, '34 VD, '45 WLA, '47 WL, '49 FL, '51 WL, '58 ST (Hummer), '71 GE (Servi)
- Location: Lonoke, Arkansas
- Has thanked: 5 times
- Been thanked: 49 times
I'm going to guess that modern O-rings are synthetic, some variation of Neopreme similar to the Viton tips on the needles. And we all know how those swell up!!!
I would also bet that the composition of the rings has not changed much since they first starting using them, they've always been synthetic. The composition of the fuel is what changed.
As we've discussed in other threads Cotten, it sure would be nice to have some fresh 1967 gasoline to do some comparing. The old leaded regular may have swelled them too. A predictable amount of swelling may have even been engineered into the design to make them seal better.
I'm sure you've seen obviously different seal compositions over the years. Some of them soften and swell where others get hard and brittle.
just some thoughts....
mike
I would also bet that the composition of the rings has not changed much since they first starting using them, they've always been synthetic. The composition of the fuel is what changed.
As we've discussed in other threads Cotten, it sure would be nice to have some fresh 1967 gasoline to do some comparing. The old leaded regular may have swelled them too. A predictable amount of swelling may have even been engineered into the design to make them seal better.
I'm sure you've seen obviously different seal compositions over the years. Some of them soften and swell where others get hard and brittle.
just some thoughts....
mike
-
- Inactive member
- Member
- Posts: 143
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:17 pm
- Bikes: -
- Location: Charlottesville, VA
Years ago I remember buying special aircraft o rings. This is a current quote about fuel resistant o rings from an aircraft supplier.
These MS29513 series O-rings are resistant to fuel and are ideal for applications such as fuel injection connections and primers. A small amount of fuel proof grease applied to these O-rings helps the installation and operation of primers. Not resistant to automotive fuels.
The last sentence is scary.
Kent
These MS29513 series O-rings are resistant to fuel and are ideal for applications such as fuel injection connections and primers. A small amount of fuel proof grease applied to these O-rings helps the installation and operation of primers. Not resistant to automotive fuels.
The last sentence is scary.
Kent
-
- Inactive member
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1400
- Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 5:54 am
- Bikes: -
- Location: north florida
- Been thanked: 7 times
There is so little of the o-ring that is open to the fuel , That I would not even worry about it . My experience has been with only the o-ring designed manifolds on Pans and Shovels. I have never taken any off that were bloated out of alignment, you do find them installed incorrectly and not sealing ,but that's an installers fault . Sure almost all have shown signs of compression but that's to be expected since you do compress them a little if properly installed , its the way it was designed. They last as long as any other seal if installed correctly ( that includes head / manifold alignment when installing the heads).That o-ring is almost completely encased within the clamp and manifold/head nipple . Some people just don't like o-rings and I don't know why, o-rings are our friends !
-
- Member
- Posts: 238
- Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 11:18 pm
- Bikes: 48 pan
81 shovel
01 softail std
04 heritage
08 roadking
72 ct70 - Location: WV
The O-rings are there to seal. That is all. Even with clamps tightened, you can still move the manifold if you don't have the float bowl support installed. I say let the O-rings swell-up. Maybe they'll find a gap to seal.Everybody must remember that the Factory never held a carb on a machine with the clamps: There was always a support bracket for that.
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6937
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2002 2:30 am
- Bikes: -
- Location: Central Illinois
- Has thanked: 112 times
- Been thanked: 310 times
In normal operation, the O-rings are hopefully not exposed to significant amounts of fuel.
But what happens if you forget to shut your petcock for the weekend (or it leaks all of the time anyway?)
OHVs have their carbs aimed upward when on the kickstand. It is not at all unusual for fuel to make it all the way to the cases!
So consider what happens if only the bottom of the rings swell from total immersion..
Consider also what might happen to the 'rubber' compound after swelling and shrinking repeatedly?
Just something to look forward to....
....Cotten
But what happens if you forget to shut your petcock for the weekend (or it leaks all of the time anyway?)
OHVs have their carbs aimed upward when on the kickstand. It is not at all unusual for fuel to make it all the way to the cases!
So consider what happens if only the bottom of the rings swell from total immersion..
Consider also what might happen to the 'rubber' compound after swelling and shrinking repeatedly?
Just something to look forward to....
....Cotten
- Attachments
-
- ORING.jpg (50.28 KiB) Viewed 1453 times