'65 Pricing Help

[Zedder]

Hi, I'm new to the site and looking for my first Pan after lusting over them for 15 years! I have been talking with the owner of this bike that was on ebay and he is firm at $25K. A friend who knows Pans well, thinks that is high for this bike. Would anyone be interested in sharing their opinion please? Thanks in advance...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1965-Pan ... dZViewItem

[Guest]

Yea 25K is a little strong in this market, I'd put it at 20-21, about where the bidding went

[Robert Luland]

Who the hell gives a rat’s ass what the motor company values something at? That bike is ten grand over priced. It’s quite obvious you don’t know what your doing. So if I were you I find something local that a pro could go over top to bottom. If you insist on paying this insanity. I would become a member of the AMCA and find a pro afar. I’m not trying to beat you up here. I’m trying to keep you from making one hell of a mistake. Bob

“Any man that forsakes freedom for security deserves neither.”
1 800 NRA JOIN

[Pantony]

Who says the Motor Company told him what it's worth, it's worth what the market will bear, and in ebays forum that is what the bidders have said, for better or worse, it's a nice bike from the looks of it, if I was to be intrested I'd fly out and look it over.

[Cotten]

Just the visible faults:

The bag guards are Dixies.
The bottom of the shock are chromed (probably repop).
The seat is '64 "diamond" pattern.
The Delco starter has been replaced with a Prestolite.
Left exhaust cover is later.
Kickspring cover is '66 and later.
Regulator cover chromed.
Footboards chromed.
Manifold chromed.
Timing plug and case fasteners chromed?
Rubber gasline?
Primary inspection plate chromed.
Cylinders are black.
Pancovers chromed.
Tappetblocks and timer painted black.
Camcover has been polished (or worse).
Pinstripe on tanks make two curves.
Front fender bottom trim is modern.
Tires aren't even close.
Seat assist spring clips are missing.

Not too bad, really.

....Cotten

[Guest]

Thanks guys...I really appreciate your comments. While I am new to Pans and older Harleys in general, I am certainly not stupid and wouldn't buy a bike like this without an inspection by someone who knows what they are looking at...which I clearly don't at this point. The friend that I sent the pics to has been around old bikes forever and I trust his opinion. He pointed out many of the things that Cotton mentioned and said that "$25K can buy a much better bike". I am simply trying to get other opinions on the market for a bike like this with it's current faults/modifications, so I am better prepared to know when to call in someone to look at a bike for me. Simply part of the education process...

Please feel free to make further comments as I appreciate the education!

[Zedder]

Sorry, Guest above is me...I didn't log in automatically for some reason.

One other question...I have the Fields book already but it doesn't show any unrestored '65 Pans. Is there a resource that shows pics of unrestored survivor bikes or correct restorations available?

[fourthgear]

That is a nice looking scoot. Ya know ,you would think when these bikes go up for sale and post at those kind of prices ,every one that owns a Panhead should be dancing in the rain, especially those that have running museum pieces ( because they ARE worth more ) . Only the PUREST would pick them apart like its some sacred cow ,because it has this or that, that is not right or not OEM as it came off the factory floor or ya think its not worth that much to you because you paid this for yours or he paid that for his . Face it , these bikes are old and if you have one that has everything on it original and I mean original, you are extremely lucky . Of course all the bike show types ,cringe at such beasts ,like they are a abomination to the Harley GODs and we will all be dammed for them being that way. When you invest money into some thing , what are you going to do ,sell it for half of what you have into it because its not exactly OEM. You may say , that's the market , well maybe it time to change it . Just look at the Ebay stuff . Sure you coild pay a couple of grand for one , but we all know you will put a lot more "grands " in it to get her to run right .To each there own. I mean no offense to any one , just my two.

[1964 pan]

In other words. It is what it is. ( I have it as back ground right now.) Nice pan.

[Cotten]

Why does an un-restored original machine command the most attention and value?
Perhaps only because it is the real thing?

If it is only 'original' once, why worry about "correct" when it is re-built?

A heavily altered machine might as well be personalized, as the trials and tribulations of restoring it would never be as rewarding as getting 'creative' with it, and riding it without worry of consuming a "museum piece", or an unreasonable investment.

But a reasonably intact machine, as the one in question probably was, is depreciated by restoration faults.
The informed prospective buyer knows that incorrect chromed parts are a sure sign that the builder didn't know the damage done, or just got them out of a catalog. Adding that to the motor paint, and suddenly everything inside becomes very suspicious.

The machine probably would not even make the threshold 85 points in serious judging. It was not restored, it was molested.

The reason for AMCA judging is not to make every machine the same, but to help owners preserve those worth saving. This one could certainly be saved, but it would cost a great deal of time, effort, and cash. Therefore it should not command much more than any other custom bagger.

....Cotten

[Pantony]

Ya I'll echo Cotton; that cam cover almost looks like they chromed it

[fourthgear]

Those are good points and on the most part true about the value of a machine restored and unmolested as was said , but only and I mean only ,if you guide your life by some kind of judge, from some kind of organization, in some "click" of bike show people. Is it the real thing ,if it has a title that reads 1965 Harley Davidson ( and it sure looks like one) , than its real , you can not deny that except for a few cosmetic things ( big deal )Now if it had a S&S motor in there , than its not real .I guess there are different stages of real out there . There is always going to be a "rift " so to speak between those who think it has to be the way it came from the factory floor and those who like to make them look and function better , "custom " so to speak. They are still real Panheads.

Points ,"we don't need no stinking points ". ARRRRRRRRRRRR

[Pantony]

Fourthgear I couldn't aggree more; The Flat I will build will be all from parts and pieces to be just a road driver. I will never ever enter it in some kind of competition. Why would I ever care? When some of my friends meet up with me will they care if the spokes are stainless or Cad-plated? Will they even know what a Linkert Carb is? I say to each his own. My last bike was a very accurate bike. Mostly original. Did it matter in the long run as far as just driving? Well actually yes. It started harder wasn't timed as acurate if it had a 12 volt electrical system and electronic ignition, didn't get as good a fuel mileage as it would had it had a CV carb on it. But it was moslty original so it would had detered the value. If this guy want just to ride a pan thats running good then originality flys out the window for the same reasons I state. Will he enter this 65 in an AMCA meet? Probably not. Is this bike all original? Cotton points out a lot that would say no. But is it a good bike for the guy? Probably is. And if it is and as we've seen there were some bidders that though it was close to that 25K the guy said he wanted then it becomes simple, even if YOU think he is 10 grand high, your not the guy that still owns the bike, the seller is. So the easy answer becomes, this guy has to pay the owner an agreed price. I'd bet that to be around 20K + OR - whatever, but close to that. Hey I have and old Car & Driver magazine that has a VW ad on the back cover for $1795. No you can't get one that cheep any more. Nothing is. If he gets it at a price he is comfortable with then everyones happy. will he get it for 10K less I don't think so, be nice but I doubt it. That ain't a bad lookin Pan, probably wasn't rebuilt to win a judging contest. Could have been built as a road driver, My old GrandAm was, starts and get me to the shop every morning.

[Cotten]

A piece of paper is only stained cellulose if the hardware does not match what it is supposed to document.

This machine only comes close, and that purely depends upon the VIN stamps, which curiously have been omitted from the auction photos.

How many thousands and thousands of dollars is this particular pile of parts worth?
Obviously that is a personal judgement, but the original question asked for a reality check.

I gave one.

....Cotten

[john HD]

more often than not i find my motorcycle runs better and looks better the more original i make it.

food for thought as far as replacement parts go.

john