What a piece of......

[51Hog]

FINE machinery my 51 pan is.... A fine piece of engineering....
I put her away last September when the first snow hit. Didn't do anything but turn off the gas and put her on the rear stand.
She was in my unheated shed, out in the yard, all by herself, well, not really by herself, (the lawn mower and spare heater were out there).
Temps this winter were as low as -40 degrees F. for weeks on end.
Well, Its +40F now and the snow is starting to melt and some of the highways are clear.
The ice is starting to get rotten on my access road.
Time to get the pan out and put some new rubber on her, ck the lifters, timing, chain, belt, brakes, etc...
And just get her ready for the summer.

Went out to the shed and pushed her off the rear stand and found a flat rear tire. Aired it up and rolled her out of the shed and onto the ice.
Rolled her down hill to a patch in the driveway that has a little gravel showing where my feet would get traction.

I opened the fuel valve. gave her full choke, pushed her through 4 times and thought, Maybe I should circulate a little oil before I try to fire her up.
So I kicked her about a dozen times. Could almost feel her loosening up getting ready for the big moment.
Put the choke on 1 notch, pushed her through another time, brought her up to compression, retarded the spark, turned on the switch for the first time.
(Incredibly, my 2 year old 6v batteries that I have tied together in series for 12v were still lighting the dash lights.)
Pushed her through and I thought I heard her try to fire.
Pushed her through again, and she was there, running like as if I had just ridden her yesterday.
Let her idle for about a minute and took the choke off. She was idling perfectly.
I put her on the jiffy stand and let her warm up.
The only complaint she had was when she slobbered out about a quart of sumped oil.
Guess I did not reef hard enough on the burnisher to properly clean up the seat in the oil pump.
Looks like I may have to try again.
What a fine Machine is the old bike.
Dale

[Hog54]

Im surprised you could even kick it.I dont even try mine unless its atleast 60 degrees out.

[azpaul50]

Regardless of rumor, I have never called my pan .." piece of anything." Honestly....really...truly.... actually.... specifically...empiracally...unequivocally................................... well, maybe but I didn't start it! (get it?) - azpaul, paragon of the panhead moral community

[john HD]

both my bikes left unattended since last fall started on the first kick this spring!

woohoo!

john

[51Hog]

Love it when that happens..

[Cotten]

Dale!

I have been forced to do an embarrassing back-step on on the practice of burnishing while installed, so please do not try again, as damage may result.

Here's a synopsis of problem I encountered, as posted previously:
Sometimes when a new good idea comes along, it takes a while before we find out why it wasn't common practice all these years.

I have been evolving my sump ball-check burnishers in several ways, and even attempted to avoid compromise to the point of subbing out some of it to real live machinists and welders. Yet now, after tooling up to assure low cost as well as quality control by doing it all in-house, I find that the seats are not always concentric to the pump's threads.

No wonder my sloppy prototypes produced phenomenal results.

Although I do not solicit folks to send me pumps, one presumed WLA body has presented real concerns with dressing techniques!
The casting was phenomenally hard, as if "chilled". It cut more like iron than steel... and believe me "cutting" was a last resort. Even stroking the gasket surface upon a stone made it "sing".

The pump arrived filthy, semi-polished with primer, and the bypass frosted in securely.
Upon cleaning, arthroscopic inspection revealed enormous pitting in the primary sump ball-check ('41 to '51 SVs had a secondary sump ball-check as well.)

My diamond-dressed piloted stone quickly displayed the concentricity problem.
It was actually worse than the general pitting, but for one enormous one right on the seat.

With nothing to lose, I spent time on fashioning a 29/64" counterboring endmill from drillrod to take the seat surface down from the top to produce a flat surface, and sharp edge to the gallery below for a place to dress the seat. At this point it became apparent that the gallery bore was several thou off center from my pilots.

Whether this is a WW2 fluke, or other vintages of H-Ds share problems, or even if some occasionally have been in a fire and then buried in mud before cleaned up for ebay,.... The apllication of burnishers has its cautions.
For as I attempted a go at it anyway, not only did the hard casting mar the burnisher badly,... it chipped the seat!

After having applied my burnishers to a few dozen OHV pumps, a few 45" motors on the bench a decade ago, and a pre-'41-post-'51 pump or two in my reference drawers, slight marring the burnisher's ball was a matter of many uses. Destroying one in one use is an extreme example, but now calls for serious reconsideration.

If the sumping problem becomes troublesome,
I would certainly tend to it on the bench for you,
although you may wish to wait another season to remove it, of course.

....Cotten

[51Hog]

Cotten,
Thank you for the warning and explanation.
And thanks for the offer to tend to the pump on your bench.
We'll see what the summer brings.
I will put another ball in there and see what happens.
Anyone have a spare ball sitting around that I could buy?
Dale

[Hog54]

I got an S&S pump on mine and it still sumps after winter.I just learn to live with it.

[Panhead Ed]

that was a refreshing post ! thank you.... I think if I read one more thread of some one crying "I cant start my bike" I'd go postal......... we used to say "IF YOU CANT START IT YOUR TO DRUNK TO RIDE IT"..... BUT THAT WAS LONG AGO... have a great day , you made mine...... Ed

its a pan , a little oil on the ground once a year is good for the eco system,,,, its like recycling aint it?

[JR JOHNSON]

Dale!

I have been forced to do an embarrassing back-step on on the practice of burnishing while installed, so please do not try again, as damage may result.

Here's a synopsis of problem I encountered, as posted previously:
Sometimes when a new good idea comes along, it takes a while before we find out why it wasn't common practice all these years.

I have been evolving my sump ball-check burnishers in several ways, and even attempted to avoid compromise to the point of subbing out some of it to real live machinists and welders. Yet now, after tooling up to assure low cost as well as quality control by doing it all in-house, I find that the seats are not always concentric to the pump's threads.

No wonder my sloppy prototypes produced phenomenal results.

Although I do not solicit folks to send me pumps, one presumed WLA body has presented real concerns with dressing techniques!
The casting was phenomenally hard, as if "chilled". It cut more like iron than steel... and believe me "cutting" was a last resort. Even stroking the gasket surface upon a stone made it "sing".

The pump arrived filthy, semi-polished with primer, and the bypass frosted in securely.
Upon cleaning, arthroscopic inspection revealed enormous pitting in the primary sump ball-check ('41 to '51 SVs had a secondary sump ball-check as well.)

My diamond-dressed piloted stone quickly displayed the concentricity problem.
It was actually worse than the general pitting, but for one enormous one right on the seat.

With nothing to lose, I spent time on fashioning a 29/64" counterboring endmill from drillrod to take the seat surface down from the top to produce a flat surface, and sharp edge to the gallery below for a place to dress the seat. At this point it became apparent that the gallery bore was several thou off center from my pilots.

Whether this is a WW2 fluke, or other vintages of H-Ds share problems, or even if some occasionally have been in a fire and then buried in mud before cleaned up for ebay,.... The apllication of burnishers has its cautions.
For as I attempted a go at it anyway, not only did the hard casting mar the burnisher badly,... it chipped the seat!

After having applied my burnishers to a few dozen OHV pumps, a few 45" motors on the bench a decade ago, and a pre-'41-post-'51 pump or two in my reference drawers, slight marring the burnisher's ball was a matter of many uses. Destroying one in one use is an extreme example, but now calls for serious reconsideration.

If the sumping problem becomes troublesome,
I would certainly tend to it on the bench for you,
although you may wish to wait another season to remove it, of course.

....Cotten

cotten,sense there's no seal between the gears in the pump shaft,it should seep back to the cam case naturally,that why they put a seal in the later pumps.i've had pumps that the ball seats look brand new,but if i didn't start it up once in a while,oil be low in the tank,and you now where the rest is.just start it up once in the while,no probs.just a my 2cents of owning panheads for 35 year.......please set me strait if wrong.......................JR.

[Cotten]

JR!

Later pumps?

I have almost no clue, as it has been well over a decade since I have held one in my hands, and memory fails,....
Although I faintly remember putting a seal in a Pan pump once, as part of a key damage repair, and loose idler shaft.
It sealed between the two chambers of the pump itself, I think. A proper press-fit shaft should minimize that leakage , however it may well be a factor for many sumpers!

Thanks!

Shouldn't there be a seal in the motor case for the drive shaft?

....Cotten

[JR JOHNSON]

JR!

Later pumps?

I have almost no clue, as it has been well over a decade since I have held one in my hands, and memory fails,....
Although I faintly remember putting a seal in a Pan pump once, as part of a key damage repair, and loose idler shaft.
It sealed between the two chambers of the pump itself, I think. A proper press-fit shaft should minimize that leakage , however it may well be a factor for many sumpers!

Thanks!

Shouldn't there be a seal in the motor case for the drive shaft?

....Cotten

cotten,i was referring the oil draining back threw the gears,out the sump hole in the case,not the drive shaft......................with respect..JR

[Cotten]

cotten,i was referring the oil draining back threw the gears,out the sump hole in the case,not the drive shaft......................with respect..JR

JR!

Now I'm real confused.
Which is the "sump hole in the case"?

The gears are no barrier of course, but I'm not seeing a 'sump hole', beyond the gearcase entry to the return side if the pump.

Leakage to the return side of the pump through a loose idler is certainly a possible alternative route, and leakage to the gearcase through a worn drive shaft as well.
But the only other route to the motor should be through the ballcheck.

Perhaps the return line to the tank can siphon out the oil filter?

I would like to see a pic of modern pump to jog my memory on the seal. It seems to me that aluminum pumps just couldn't keep the shafts tight, and it was the MOCO's bandaid.

...Cotten

[JR JOHNSON]

cotten,OK,what i meant is the hole in the case,where,the oil return gears suck the oil out of the case,than to the tank.than the pressure gears,return gears have no seal in between the two sets of gears in the early pumps,the check valve is after the gears,if not correct me,so theirs oil sitting at the pressure side of the pump,so with the engine not running for a bit,wouldn't the oil seep over to sump side or return side of the pump,than back out the to the case?i be leave 68 they put a seal in there,or maybe aluminum pumps did?,now I'm confusing my self! look at the pumps in the parts manuals in the knowledge base,what keeps the oil seeping between the inlet side,return side in the early pump?may be new tight pump wouldn't leak in between,or been thinking wrong for 35 years.sorry for tieing up this thread..................JR.....SO WHEN YOU SAY SUMPING.IS IT FILLING UP THE FLYWHEEL SIDE,OR IS IT FLOODING THE GEAR CASE?OR BOTH...WITH RESPECT.JR

[Cotten]

JR!

It is I who has confused things, for with a body in my hand, I see that the repair I mentioned was indeed to the drive shaft's bore between the feed and return sides, not the idler.

Hasty disassembly is usually the cause of key damage.

But there were of plenty loose idlers in those in aluminum pumps, so I guess some need two seals.

I have been overlooking this issue entirely, and I appreciate the clue!

A seal can be installed into a worn castiron body easily on a lathe faceplate.

Now our question becomes:
How can we test for that on an installed pump?

Sumping in this manner means oil enters the gearcase and attempts to reach the headlevel of the oil remaining in the oiltank. So it fills the gear case until it can spill over into crankcase through the pinion main. Then it fills the crankcase until it can safely spill out of the sprocket main, through the slinger, into the primary.
Unless,... you have a sprocket shaft seal for a belt.
Then the oil continues to fill the crank and gearcase until it reaches equilibrium with the oil tank. It makes the machine a mess to start, including fouled plugs.

....Cotten