Used hydraulic tappet inserts that pass Service Manual Push and Hold Test

17920-53A used oem pieces

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80Flh
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Used hydraulic tappet inserts that pass Service Manual Push and Hold Test

#1

Post by 80Flh »

If used Harley original equipment examples of 17920-53A which I assume are original Eaton manufacturing hydraulic inserts pass the push down test 6 seconds and spring back up of the piston considered safe to install and use.
My reason for asking is many of you experienced wrenches may be able to confirm my curiosity.
My original hydraulic tappets have the Sifton style mushroom shape solid lifter conv,ersion with the spring underneath. I have adjusted them to zero lash but spin with finger and thumb with some resistance.
The S and S inserts are good original copies yet expensive and I have read the Taiwan made clones and or Chinese manufactured V-Twin clones I should be leary of and or stay away from reading numerous posts on as many forums as I can search.
That leaves the Japan made 17920-53A insert by Daytona of Japan. If possible I would hope to hear from you Panhead riders if I can be confident in confirming the tested used lifter inserts should be safe to install, adjust using the dry method and or wet method, And if so what to watch out for while riding and or operating the motor.
Motor is a 1980 eighty inch shovel with about 15K original miles. Has original Tom Sifton cam, the Cobra 112.
Runs very well. Japan made inserts are marked DIT for Daytona International Technology. Also sold as Japan made, ebay and by Drag, Hardrive, Eastern and others. If any of you have run these with zero problems I would like to learn. Since the Panhead engine uses these original pieces I want to ask Panhead riders. Thanks in advance for your help.
Last edited by 80Flh on Mon Oct 23, 2023 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Used hydraulic tappet inserts that pass Service Manual Push and Hold Test

#2

Post by RooDog »

As a side note: The spring insert in any solid lifter kit is useless, adds weight, and does nothing beneficial for the valve train. If you keep the solids, lose those springs.
I may be wrong on this, but Tom Sifton didn't name his cams, he simply used numbers, generally in step with the nominal valve lift.
And any given cam will have less lift in a Shovelhead that in a Panny. So choose wisely....
....RooDog....
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Re: Used hydraulic tappet inserts that pass Service Manual Push and Hold Test

#3

Post by Mongrel505558 »

It's getting time to think about new lifters for my pan. I've been running Velva-Touch hydraulics for over 25 years and they've been great, but they're starting to get a little noisy. I've been looking at what's available in both hydraulic and solid, but the thing that concerns me the most is the quality of the roller assembly. Lose one of those and things can get very ugly. I understand Velva-Touch offers a rebuilding service, so I may look into that. New ones are out of the question right now because of the price. I haven't heard of Daytona tappets, although I believe they make a decent replacement oil pump for Twin Cam motors.
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Re: Used hydraulic tappet inserts that pass Service Manual Push and Hold Test

#4

Post by 80Flh »

Thanks RooDog and Mongrel for your input. Cam had 112 stamped on it and Alphabetic Date Code on it I confirmed with Craig at Black Widow Cams it was installed in 1980 or 81. Pulls strong 2500-5000 RPMS.
AFAIK Daytona only makes the hydraulic insert. I will pull tappet blocks, measure clearance in the bores and inspect rollers before trying the used Harley oem inserts that pass the push and hold test before using I have three confirmed good used ones now as per Shop Manual. And yes everyone confirms the spring under the solid conversions is doing absolutely nothing.
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Re: Used hydraulic tappet inserts that pass Service Manual Push and Hold Test

#5

Post by nifty »

80Flh wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:27 pm I will pull tappet blocks, measure clearance in the bores and inspect rollers before trying the used Harley oem inserts that pass the push and hold test before using I have three confirmed good used ones now as per Shop Manual.
IMO What no manual mentions is the fit between tappet & stock hyd insert (or solid insert)
For maximum silence you need the best fit possible between insert and tappet body
Stiff hand push is best
Problem is angularity of pushrods and height of pushrod cup of hyd lifter (or solid insert) the combined effect is insert rocks in tappet, makes noise and you lose lifter fill oil pressure.
Front exhaust has most angularity
So, even hyd lifters which pass all MoCo tests, can still be noisy as they rock & clack in tappets.
MoCo once advised gluing insert into tappet, see TSB 732 in downloads.
Which IMHO is one reason why MoCo radically lowered pushrod seat of Evo hyd lifters
Nifty
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Re: Used hydraulic tappet inserts that pass Service Manual Push and Hold Test

#6

Post by 80Flh »

Nifty that is great information and the Moco did use locktite or other glue to tighten up the insert into the tappet body from my research, I will take a look at the TSB you mentioned. Not sure if after gluing the insert in if I could go back to solid inserts without the tappet body bore gluing being a problem. At this pt. I just am considering the inserts it would be nice to hear from others' experiences either glued or not with the hydraulic inserts.
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Re: Used hydraulic tappet inserts that pass Service Manual Push and Hold Test

#7

Post by nifty »

I did not advise you to glue your inserts in and I wouldn't do it.
I alerted you to my perception of a problem which to best of my knowledge is not admitted to by MoCo and seldom mentioned by others.
IMO If you had good fitting inserts in tappets (like they should be) and additionally loctited, you might gain some quiet service life in a stock engine.
If inserts already loose, IMHO no glue will last. Ditto for solid inserts.
If you have high lift cam and stronger valve springs, you are really up against it wanting quiet OE style hyd lifters.
Nifty
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Re: Used hydraulic tappet inserts that pass Service Manual Push and Hold Test

#8

Post by 80Flh »

All good knowledge Nifty thank you. The cam is mild .440 lift and bike is vintage machine so run it at speed limit of 55-60 mph max. My pockets are not deep enough at this time to stroke it and aggressive cam, strong valve springs headwork. The noise doesn't bother me with the solid conversions that we're installed by original owner. Just wanting to learn more about the hydraulic units themselves vs. The solid conversion in it now that works just fine. I could not open the TSB732 download fwiw.
Last edited by 80Flh on Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
chuckthebeatertruck
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Re: Used hydraulic tappet inserts that pass Service Manual Push and Hold Test

#9

Post by chuckthebeatertruck »

80Flh wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:49 am bike is vintage machine so run it at speed limit of 55-60 mph max.
Why?

Bikes don’t age like people. Your bike has no idea it is 42 years old and it doesn’t care.

Just ride it and don’t treat it like an old fart.

You’ll enjoy it a lot more if you just ride and don’t think about the bike’s age.

I commute on bikes a lot older than 1980. If I was limited to 55-60 cause I was on an old bike I’d have gotten creamed decades ago.
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Re: Used hydraulic tappet inserts that pass Service Manual Push and Hold Test

#10

Post by nifty »

80Flh wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:49 am I cpuld not open the TSB732 download fwiw.
Click on the big green button at lower right

Nifty
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Re: Used hydraulic tappet inserts that pass Service Manual Push and Hold Test

#11

Post by RooDog »

chuckthebeatertruck wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:36 pm
80Flh wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:49 am bike is vintage machine so run it at speed limit of 55-60 mph max.
Why?

Bikes don’t age like people. Your bike has no idea it is 42 years old and it doesn’t care.

Just ride it and don’t treat it like an old fart.

You’ll enjoy it a lot more if you just ride and don’t think about the bike’s age.

I commute on bikes a lot older than 1980. If I was limited to 55-60 cause I was on an old bike I’d have gotten creamed decades ago.
My '68 FL is a hot rod, I ride it like it is, and it likes that kind of attention....
80Flh
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Re: Used hydraulic tappet inserts that pass Service Manual Push and Hold Test

#12

Post by 80Flh »

OK resized the photo. I am going to run these and see what gives. Out of the first set of 4 three test out fine, cleaning this set and will post results after cleaning.
Thanks for confirming I need to beat on it more than I have been. After all it is drinking Racing oil.
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Re: Used hydraulic tappet inserts that pass Service Manual Push and Hold Test

#13

Post by Little Stan »

Getting a set of old hydraulic lifters working can be a hassle but once solved your motor will be much quieter especially if you run the felts glued to the covers. Hydraulics are also a good safety valve if your oil pump quits working all lifters will collapse as a warning sign to shut it off and save the motor.

One time when my motor had a bunch of miles on it one lifter would collapse and then usually pump back up at reduced speed. It started raining and the lifter noise went away from cooling of the motor.

-little stan
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Re: Used hydraulic tappet inserts that pass Service Manual Push and Hold Test

#14

Post by RooDog »

Click this link. It is so much easier than trying to find it by number.
I remember when this bogus information hit the dealership. Another turd from the MoCo? These lifters had been working just fine for 25 years, and now, all of a sudden, they needed to be glued in place? What else had changed to require this "fix"? The "big bore" 80" motors, perhaps? I don't know. I left the dealership a few months later....
....RooDog....

No. 732 Service Bulletin - Glued in hyd lifters
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Re: Used hydraulic tappet inserts that pass Service Manual Push and Hold Test

#15

Post by 80Flh »

Fwiw on the second set of oem used HD hydraulic inserts I wanted to show 2 vertical scratches and the loctite or red glue the Moco was up to. Roodog u nailed if it ain't broken don't monkey with it . Engine noise customer complaints I am guessing. Can anyone confirm the oem Pan and Shovel manufacturing done by Eaten
The top of the line S and S formerly Crane have the oem rights to the design, top quality, yet spendy.
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Last edited by 80Flh on Fri Oct 20, 2023 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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