Retard on warm Start

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Scrap
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Retard on warm Start

#1

Post by Scrap »

RE: 57 FL, stock timer & Linkert
I cold start at full retard, usually one kick. If the motor has been sitting for an hour or so, I use the same procedure usually one kick. If that works, why change. On occasion, after bringing the engine up on compression, it starts on the one kick, but instead of feeling like I'm kicking through the resistance of compression, after the initial kick it feels like the rest of the stroke has no resistance and yesterday I hyperextended my knee because I was using a lot of force but nothing to buffer it. Does it make sense that the motor started almost as soon as I started to kick and therefore there was no resistance at the end of the stroke? I'm going to dial back the retard to half way (when I finish icing my knee) in the future. Just wondering if there could be another explanation.
Thanks,
Sam
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Re: Retard on warm Start

#2

Post by Buddhahoodvatoloco »

I have always just 1/2 retard.
Learn to kick through, through all the way.
But alas you will come to terms with the gurl. :lol:
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Re: Retard on warm Start

#3

Post by panheadrider1961 »

what is condition of starter clutch sounds like teeth are starting to get rounded causing it to grip then slip through when force is applied, this one time doing this or getting frequent your clutch may be a little on tight side also letting it slip through at times worth checking out
Scrap
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Re: Retard on warm Start

#4

Post by Scrap »

Never happens cold, only warm and rarely, but it hurt yesterday. Starter looked great not that many miles ago.
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Re: Retard on warm Start

#5

Post by droptopford »

Just my opinion here, but I don't think your issue has anything to do with how far your timing is retarded. Too far advanced might (will) kick back at you sometimes, but no matter how far you retard the spark, it won't cause the kicker to fall through like there's no resistance. Sounds like a kicker gear issue of some kind.

Never had that happen to me on any big twin thankfully. Had it happen enough times on a Sportster though. Damn that hurts...you have my sympathy. Nothing makes you more skittish about kicking than the feeling that you're about to snap a knee or an ankle!
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Re: Retard on warm Start

#6

Post by Scrap »

Thanks for the replies. I'll mark the pressure plate and check to see if the clutch is slipping as that's pretty easy to check. If not I'll look at the starter. The fact that the motor always starts on that kick made me think it was running before I could get to the end of the stroke.
Anyone else start a warm engine on full retard?
Thanks
Sam
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Re: Retard on warm Start

#7

Post by Excalibur »

Shady uses full retard on his '60 FL. Interestingly enough, he's had the hyperextension thing at least twice!

To help rule out causes, why don't you check your full retard timing position? If yours happens to be 5°, the TDC mark will be hard over to the right of the hole. If it's at TDC it will be in the middle and if it's 5° after-TDC it will be hard to the left.

FYI, the MoCo spec'd 5°BTDC for later, auto-advanced timers. Might be a reasonable target to aim for and see if problem goes away??
Food for thought at least..

Yesterday we were "at it again", at the bar that sells Panhead beer on tap... Shady's offending red 60FL knee breaker.
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Re: Retard on warm Start

#8

Post by Mongrel505558 »

Scrap wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:19 am Thanks for the replies. I'll mark the pressure plate and check to see if the clutch is slipping as that's pretty easy to check. If not I'll look at the starter. The fact that the motor always starts on that kick made me think it was running before I could get to the end of the stroke.
Anyone else start a warm engine on full retard?
Thanks
Sam
When I had manual advance on my pan I always started on full retard no matter what. Otherwise it would kick me back.
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Re: Retard on warm Start

#9

Post by RooDog »

Those crappy kick me starters on Sportsters almost sent me to the hospital.
One day in the late 1970s, while wrenching at the local Dealership, I had a Magneto equipped XLCH, I know that is redundant but I want to be clear about that bike, with an extended front fork. It was way up in the air compared to a stock CH. and the kicker fell through on me, just about wrecking my knee. Damn, it hurt, and I was pissed that I was injuring my self for a dew dollars on someone else's bike. I left the shop without saying a word, got in my truck, drove across the street, goat a tall boy, and drove around until the hurting went away. When I got back to the shop the Sporty was running, nothing was said, and that was the last Sportster I ever kicked........
....RooDog.....
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Re: Retard on warm Start

#10

Post by FL54 »

Warm starts I retard the timer about 1/3. I also check to make sure the foot clutch lever is all the way forward.
Feel your pain on the hyperextension. Never happened to me on a BT but like Roo and others, my Sportster used to on occasion. The hyperextension aside, what really hurt was catching the in side of the knee on the corner of the oil bag.
Glad those days are behind me.
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Re: Retard on warm Start

#11

Post by nmaineron »

I learned the hard way that you can't drink away the pain. My 70 CH left me with a full leg cast. Crazy painful.
As far as retarding the ignition, I rarely went more than just a pinch off from full advance when cold, when hot I left it fully advanced. Most times it was one kick.
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Re: Retard on warm Start

#12

Post by RooDog »

Pills, best taken with alcohol, do help.

Sporty's design flaw was that the kicker ratchet was part of the back side of the clutch shell, and not cut as deeply as on the Big Twins' ratcheting teeth, hence, shallower engagement, and more likely to "slip" as they wore with age....
Dare I say, another turd from H-D?
....RooDog....
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Re: Retard on warm Start

#13

Post by Andygears »

My Sporty experience ended with my foot kinda turning left and my ankle coming down mostly full weight onto a concrete floor. After that all Sportster owners kicked their own bike, I’ll work on it, but you start it!

I retard my Pan when starting, hot or cold. When I had my ‘66 with lightened flywheels, SU carb and auto advance, I could start it by hand sometimes.

Scrap, I think you are correct that the motor ran before you finished your kick. How many degrees of crank rotation are the minimum when conditions are perfect? 20? 40? To light off the mix?

For that matter, how many degrees of crank rotation does a full kicker stroke move? Surely someone has measured it with allowance for primary gearing.

Maybe if a bike has a tendency to do this, on a hot restart, start with the pedal halfway down or lower to clear the motor and quickly get to the release cam at the bottom of the stroke. And if it lights, great! I have seen some old timers kick with a very low starting point, yet light right up.

Andygears
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Re: Retard on warm Start

#14

Post by RUBONE »

It takes very little movement to start an engine if conditions are right. I knew an old timer that always retarded his spark at shutdown. Often he could just roll the advance and the points would break and the bike start, no kicking involved. :D
Scrap
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Re: Retard on warm Start

#15

Post by Scrap »

RUBONE wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:33 am It takes very little movement to start an engine if conditions are right. I knew an old timer that always retarded his spark at shutdown. Often he could just roll the advance and the points would break and the bike start, no kicking involved. :D
Holy cow! I've never heard that before. I'm gonna try that. Report to follow.
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