Another ebay 48.

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1964 pan
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Re: Another ebay 48.

#16

Post by 1964 pan »

I am not an expert. I am amazed at the knowledge of you guys about even very minute details on our old bikes. But. Even I can see that those numbers and stamping pad have been seriously mucked with.
flatboy1950
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Bikes: 1948 Pan 61
1942 sv 74 x 4
1948 sv 74 x 1
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Re: Another ebay 48.

#17

Post by flatboy1950 »

Hello Chris,

Nothing wrong with your cases. The problem is in the book. Being published
in 1994 and the number of my crankcases that I had recorded by hand up to
that time (no digital camera) and an error by my outside source, the 1948 &
later bottom number section is somewhat in error.

What it should read is as follows:

1948-early-1950 there is a unique/odd bottom number series, each year
specific.

1948:

EL & FL will start with 148
WL & G will start with 348
UL will start with 448

1949:

EL & FL will start with 249
WL & G will start with 449

Early 1950:

EL & FL will start with 350
WL & G will start with 550

Late 1950 & up

EL & FL will start with 150, then 151, 152, etc.
WL & G will start with 350, then 351, 352, etc.
K will start with 552, then 553, 554, etc.
XL will start with 757, then 758, 759, etc.


1948 skipped leading with 2.
1949 skipped leading with 1 & 3.
1950 started by skipping 1, 2, & 4 and ended by skipping 2, 4, & by 1957 6.

Whether 125/165 models used coded bottom numbers and fit in this sequence, I
have not looked into it. The only 125 bottom number is for a 1948 and it
reads 48-1-2785.


Hope all is well out your way.

Regards,

Bruce






-----Original Message-----
From: Chris James. [mailto:flatearthspares@worldonline.co.za]
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 10:23 AM
To:
Subject: 48 Pan Question.

Greetings Bruce , Long time no hear !!

Cleaning my 48 Pan cases today & made a note of the case half # ' s &
then checked in your book .... well something does not add up ! Is there
a typo in your book or do I have some weird cases ?? The matching # ' s
are 148 -- 6109 but your book says 1 is for 74 "

My engine # is 48E 5914 , the flywheels are short stroke 61 " and the
cyls are 61 "

Dazed & confused ,
Chris James.
Speeding Big Twin
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Re: Another ebay 48.

#18

Post by Speeding Big Twin »

Chris, thank you for posting the info from Palmer. My photo collection agrees with some of it and I’ll add a few things below. Following the 37–64 publication Palmer wrote his 32–52 military book and in that one he said the 1949 code was an enigma regarding the first character but that the code was not clear so it seems he has investigated more since then. I wonder who or what constitutes his outside source and I also wonder if that same source is responsible for some of the other incorrect info in both books as far as belly numbers and serial numbers are concerned.

I cannot explain why codes 1 and 2 appear on different Pan engines at different times but my photos tell me that for Panheads stamped at the factory, code number 1 can appear on the F-series and E-series for 1948, 50, 51 and 52.

So far the only Panhead belly numbers I have examples of with code 2 are for 1949 models and for that year the 2 can appear on engines of the E-series and F-series.

I only have three examples of Pan belly numbers beginning with 149 but two are on right-hand cases and I do not think they are factory stampings. The third is on a left case but the photo is not great and although the 1 may have been done with a Harley stamp I cannot be sure. Serial number is 49FL5+++ and it may be factory but once again the photo is not good so I cannot be sure.

Quote: ‘Early 1950: EL & FL will start with 350’ Quote: ‘Late 1950 ... EL & FL will start with 150...’
Code 3 often indicates 45ci SV (1948-later G-series and/or W-series) but I can confirm 3 also appeared in belly numbers of some 1950 FLs. I do not know if 3 was used for 1950 E-series. The fourteen 1950 Pan belly numbers I have suggest it is possible they started out with 350 and later changed to 150, maybe somewhere around belly number 5000.

One photo I have shows code 3 in a 1958 Pan belly number and the accompanying factory serial number is 58 FLH 3+++.

Code 4 is said to indicate 74ci SV (1948) and it does but it also appears on some 1949 45ci SV engines instead of the expected 3. (Palmer mentioned this in his 32–52 book.) There are reports that the Big Twin SV was available via special order for 1949–52 but those reports remain unconfirmed so I cannot say what code number they had if indeed those machines were even made.

Code 5 is said to indicate K-series engines and it does but I also have photos of the 5 on some 1950 45ci SV engines: G; WLs; and WLHs. I cannot confirm that 1950 G-series and W-series changed later that year to code 3 but 3 was certainly in use again for Gs and WLs by 1951.

Code 7 indicates Sportsters as of 1957 models. However, beginning with 1975 models the format changed somewhat—for example, 775 123 012. The first section still indicated Sportster and year but the next three characters apparently indicated day of production. The last three characters apparently indicated number that day. The Big Twin format also changed to that style at that time—for example, 175 123 012. Code 14 indicated the 80ci Shovel introduced mid-1978—for example, 1478 123 012. Later on there were other codes to indicate Evos, Evo Sportsters etc.

Quote: ‘1950 started by skipping 1, 2, & 4 and ended by skipping 2, 4, & by 1957 6.’
What does Palmer mean: & by 1957 6? Does he mean 6 was skipped in 1957? If so, what is he talking about? What does he think 6 was used for? (See below for my mention of code 6.)

Quote: ‘The only 125 bottom number is for a 1948 and it reads 48-1-2785.’
I have examples similar to that Model S belly number but the sequence characters are larger than the preceding characters and on occasion there is a large gap between the two sections. It seems this post will not cooperate in demonstrating the gap but it will allow me to illustrate different size characters: 48-1- 5+++

Code 2 showed up as early as 1949: 49-2- 1+++

Code 2 again appeared for Model S 125 in 1950-52 and then for Model ST 165 in at least 1953, 56–57 and 59 but on all those 1950s occasions the format was different to the earlier style and the code was placed at the beginning—for example, 2-50 4+++; 2-56 1+++; and 2-59 2+++

However, instead of code 2 and for reasons unknown sometimes the 1950 Model S 125 received code 3: 3-50 2+++. Maybe 1950 began with code 3 and later changed to code 2?

Code 6 was used for Model B Hummer in at least 1956, 58 and 59—for example: 6-56 2+++

I have one example of code 8 and it is for a 1962 AH Topper (62 model, 61 belly numbers): 8 61 2+++. Notice all the characters are the same size as each other.

One photo shows code 9 appearing for a 1962 BTH Scat 175 (again, 62 model with 61 bellies): 9-61 2+++. And again, the characters are the same size as each other.
Eric
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